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Pursuit race wrong course

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Andymac View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 16 at 5:03pm
Originally posted by JimC


Lets suppose the course is A->B->C->D->E->F-> indefinite number of repeats
A boat passes the wrong side of E. She is, presumably, still sailing the leg from D->E, since she may correct any errors and continue if she has not finished (28.2). She then sails round F, A, B, C, in which case she is leaving on either side marks which are not on the leg she is sailing (28.1). She then rerounds D, which is not prohibited (Cases 90, 106), and passes on the correct side of E. So, effectively, she has corrected the error.
Her string passes each mark on the correct side and, arguably, in the correct order, if you ignore the marks which are not on the leg she was sailing.
Her string touches each rounding mark and
passes between any gates.


I agree with Jim in that the boat can technically correct its mistake at any time (assuming it realised its mistake), even by effectively sailing a 'NON' lap round other marks. I would add the caveat; the boat would have to declare it to the race officer/committee so that the 'NON' lap was discounted from the distance sailed. If the boat didn't realise it had missed a mark on a given lap then it would need to go to protest. I'm not sure if found against the boat what score the committee would then apply?
Imagine doing that in the first few laps of the Stockport 24 hour and not realising till the end!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 16 at 5:58pm
I've just thought of a nasty complication. The layout of the rest of the course will mean that either the string pulls tight to D->D->E(right side) which I suspect may be OK, or alternatively to D->E(wrong side)->D->E(right side), which I think must be in breach of RRS28.

Doesn't pose a problem in normal racing, when its clearly a failure to complete the course. There might be an argument for clarifying what happens in average lap , grand prix finishes or pursuits, in which case it ought to go in the SIs with the rest of the relevant parts. I just checked the SIs for Southport 24hour, since its only very long duration races where it might be possible to have a dud lap and still do fairly well, but there's no mention - but also a v simple course.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 16 at 11:23pm
Jim, Thanks for the explanations.

Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Brass

I presume you don't have a multiplicity of physical finishing lines.  I take it you use some sort of geometry/arithmetic based on position relative to other boats and marks.

There are any number of ways this is done. Some clubs do indeed set up a finish line at every mark and finish at the next mark. Its usually considered bad form to overtake after the finish gun on a reaching leg at least.

Others declare a nominal finish between two committee boats which travel in reverse direction back down the fleet starting at the leader's position when the gun goes, or even a single committee boat and estimated 90 degree angle to the rhumb line.

Originally posted by Brass


By 'sailed the wrong course' I take it you mean, for example, missed a mark or rounded a mark in the wrong direction.
My concern here is, can a busy race committee guarantee that they observed every boat rounding every mark and kept a proper count of marks, and their order, so that they can guarantee that they have penalised all boats that broke rule 28 and have not made any mistakes?

It's basically an administrative convenience and saves hearings.

That sounds a bit Orwellian to me <g>.

 If a boat disagrees with the RC's observation and considers she sailed the course correctly she may of course request redress and a hearing would proceed in much the same way.
The accuracy thing is like OCS/black flag.

I have difficulty agreeing with that.  OCS/black flag/finishing line crossings involve observation along a single fixed line, with the race officer(s) at one end.

But you must remember things are very different on a 50 acre lake than they are with two mile legs on hazy open water! 

Even accepting this, it implies a small club, with a small race management team.  If it also implies a small fleet, OK, but otherwise, accurately monitoring all marks for all boats would be, IMHO a huge challenge.  I'd like to see the control sheets the race committee uses

The RC can't guarantee they've spotted everyone who got it wrong, but you do your best.

Of course they do, but why can't they leave it up to the competitors to protest for rule 28?  You've got exoneration penalties and arbitration to reduce protest hearing overheads.

Nothing precludes another competitor protesting.

Originally posted by Brass


What you do if the boat sails lap 1 correctly, lap 2 with a rule 28 error, then lap 3 correctly, is getting very difficult: in that case disqualification is the only way it's going to work.

I didn't do this analysis when I wrote the above, but I had it in the back of my mind.
 
Lets suppose the course is A->B->C->D->E->F-> indefinite number of repeats 

A boat passes the wrong side of E.

She is, presumably, still sailing the leg from D->E, since she may correct any errors and continue if she has not finished (28.2).

No, she is not necessarily still sailing on DE once she is sailing towards F.

a boat is sailing on the leg which is consistent with her course immediately before the incident and her reasons for sailing that course.(Case 126)

She then sails round F, A, B, C, in which case she is leaving on either side marks which are not on the leg she is sailing (28.1).

Disagree

She then rerounds D, which is not prohibited (Cases 90, 106)

Agree

 and passes on the correct side of E. So, effectively, she has corrected the error.  Her string passes each mark on the correct side and, arguably, in the correct order, if you ignore the marks which are not on the leg she was sailing. 
Her string touches each rounding mark and
passes between any gates.

 I think that's a strained and unnatural construction of the rules.

What she's done is she has sailed two laps of the course, breaking rule 28 at Mark E.

If validly protested, or if the SI so provide, she could be penalised, but I don't think it's right to just reduce her number of laps.

If she came into a protest hearing and said that what she was doing was correcting her rule 28 error, then the protest committee would normally take her at her word and find that she had finished with x-1 laps, but if she just sat there shuffling her feet, she should be disqualified.

While I don't want to be discourteous to race committees, I think the above level of rules analysis is something that should be left to a protest committee, not a busy race officer on the fly, and as noted, it may well depend on the protestee's evidence about what she intended to do.


Originally posted by JimC

I've just thought of a nasty complication. The layout of the rest of the course will mean that either the string pulls tight to D->D->E(right side) which I suspect may be OK, or alternatively to D->E(wrong side)->D->E(right side), which I think must be in breach of RRS28. 

Here's a diagram of the situation as it appears to me



Note that rule 28/Case 106 don't require surplus marks to disappear:  just that the string when drawn taut passes on the required side.

Can you diagram the layout you think is problematical?

Originally posted by JimC


Doesn't pose a problem in normal racing, when its clearly a failure to complete the course. There might be an argument for clarifying what happens in average lap , grand prix finishes or pursuits,

What about the situation with average laps, where it is to a boat's advantage to 'lose' her last lap?




Edited by Brass - 27 Jul 16 at 12:26am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 16 at 12:54am
Here's what I mean. CB not mark of the course.

In left hand one if a boat leaves the OD to stbd her string doesn't touch it.
In right hand one if boat leaves OD to port her string does touch it.

Been discussing this with club SC, think we're likely to put an extra sentence or two in SIs next year so RC and scorer are in no doubt about correct procedure. As you rightly say, not fair to ask them to think this out on the fly.

As for the DSQ without a hearing for course errors, Orwellian, well maybe. Didn't say I thought it was best practice! Personally I would be happier if there was a hearing and opportunity to RAF.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 16 at 1:36am
Don't get that.

In RHS diagram assuming black green is OD, boat leaving it to stbd : string touches as show.shown. Boat leaving it to port : string doesn't touch.

Edited by Brass - 27 Jul 16 at 2:49pm
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