New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: Pursuit race wrong course
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Pursuit race wrong course

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
Finngle View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 25 Jul 16
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3
Post Options Post Options   Quote Finngle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Pursuit race wrong course
    Posted: 25 Jul 16 at 9:22pm
Can anyone tell me the answer to this one please...

In a pursuit race, if a boat sails the wrong course for the full hour (ie goes the wrong side of one mark consistently), then must that helm elect to retire or face disqualification?

In a pursuit, the winner is the boat which has gone the furthest distance. A boat which sailed the wrong course sailed the right course until the mistake on the first lap.

Can it be argued that such a competitor should be awarded last place?

Thanks.
Back to Top
423zero View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 08 Jan 15
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 540
Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 16 at 10:13pm
I hate pursuit races, the last one I took part in they changed the course about 3 times, here is a video of this race, excuse rude gesture at end.
Back to Top
Brass View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 24 Mar 08
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 803
Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 16 at 12:19am
Presumably nothing in the SI removes the requirements under rule 28 that the boat shall sail the course, and nothing changes the requirement in rule 63.1 that a boat shall not be penalised without a protest hearing, unless somebody validly protests the boat it should be awarded points for the place in which she crossed the finishing line.
Back to Top
Finngle View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 25 Jul 16
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3
Post Options Post Options   Quote Finngle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 16 at 1:43am
OK so presumably the course constitutes a full lap at least then.

Can race officers protest the boat?
Back to Top
Brass View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 24 Mar 08
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 803
Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 16 at 2:10am
Originally posted by Finngle

OK so presumably the course constitutes a full lap at least then. 

The course is whatever is described in the SI.  

Can race officers protest the boat?

A race committee may protest a boat (rule 60.2).

If the race committee ... intends to protest a boat concerning an incident the committee observed in the racing area, it shall inform her after the race within the time limit [specified as the protest time limit in the SI or rule 61.3, usually one our two hours after the race finishes] (rule 61.1( b )).

 
Back to Top
Finngle View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 25 Jul 16
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3
Post Options Post Options   Quote Finngle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 16 at 9:06am
Ok that's great, thanks :)
Back to Top
JimC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 17 May 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5412
Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 16 at 11:37am
The helm should retire.

If they do not it depends on the SIs. Default RRS is that the RC cannot DSQ a boat without a hearing, but may protest the boat, but its not uncommon for club SIs to permit DSQ without a hearing if a boat sailed the wrong course.

What I'm not 100% clear on is if a boat misses a mark on just one lap in a pursuit or average lap/grand prix finish race, and there's no special provision in the SIs. Should the PC score the boat as if it sailed one lap less, or should it be scored DSQ?

Brass - in pursuit races at clubs in the UK its not uncommon to have a travelling finish line, which records the boats' positions on the water as soon as possible to the finish gun. So any boat which is on the race course effectively finishes the race.


Edited by JimC - 26 Jul 16 at 11:40am
Back to Top
Brass View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 24 Mar 08
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 803
Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 16 at 1:19pm
Originally posted by JimC

Brass - in pursuit races at clubs in the UK its not uncommon to have a travelling finish line, which records the boats' positions on the water as soon as possible to the finish gun. So any boat which is on the race course effectively finishes the race. 

You guys do lead complicated lives <g>.

I presume you don't have a multiplicity of physical finishing lines.  I take it you use some sort of geometry/arithmetic based on position relative to other boats and marks.

I think the principle stands, and as you have said 'any boat which is on the race course finishes the race' and a boat must be scored in its finishing position (or time), unless the SI say otherwise. 

The helm should retire.

Provided she knows she broke a rule.

If she is in doubt whether she broke a rule or not, she has every right to say:  anybody who thinks I broke a rule should validly protest me and let the protest committee make the decision.

If they do not it depends on the SIs. Default RRS is that the RC cannot DSQ a boat without a hearing, but may protest the boat, but its not uncommon for club SIs to permit DSQ without a hearing if a boat sailed the wrong course. 

By 'sailed the wrong course' I take it you mean, for example, missed a mark or rounded a mark in the wrong direction.

My concern here is, can a busy race committee guarantee that they observed every boat rounding every mark and kept a proper count of marks, and their order, so that they can guarantee that they have penalised all boats that broke rule 28 and have not made any mistakes?

Maybe they could if they had the luxury of a mark-boat, with competent race officers at each mark, but otherwise, isn't it better to leave the racing to the racers?

What I'm not 100% clear on is if a boat misses a mark on just one lap in a pursuit or average lap/grand prix finish race, and there's no special provision in the SIs. Should the PC score the boat as if it sailed one lap less, or should it be scored DSQ? 

It's going to depend on the SI.

SI  I have for a grand prix finish rely on 'completed laps'.  As I recall, the race committee just recorded each time each boat crossed the finishing line.

I think that's reasonable and workable.

OK, turning to your scenario, and supposing that the SI rely on 'completed laps'.
  • my preference would be for the race committee to take each crossing of the finishing line as a 'completed lap' and leave any rule 28 problems to the other competitors.
  • If the race committee was given extended powers, then, for a grand prix finish it is relatively straight forward:  the lap before the lap with the missed mark was the last completed lap.  For average laps, it gets a bit more complicated I suppose, but the same concept can be applied.
  • What you do if the boat sails lap 1 correctly, lap 2 with a rule 28 error, then lap 3 correctly, is getting very difficult:  in that case disqualification is the only way it's going to work.
Back to Top
timeintheboat View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 01 Feb 07
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 615
Post Options Post Options   Quote timeintheboat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 16 at 1:33pm
A more common variation on this is with average lap racing in clubs where the course includes crossing the start/finish line each lap.  As the RO my duty is to record the times of the boats that sail the course. If they don't go through the line they haven't completed a lap so shouldn't have a lap time recorded until they do. But this is the RO acting as judge and jury about who has sailed the correct course.
Like some other things - sailing is more enjoyable when you do it with someone else
Back to Top
JimC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 17 May 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5412
Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 16 at 2:52pm
Originally posted by Brass

I presume you don't have a multiplicity of physical finishing lines.  I take it you use some sort of geometry/arithmetic based on position relative to other boats and marks.

There are any number of ways this is done. Some clubs do indeed set up a finish line at every mark and finish at the next mark. Its usually considered bad form to overtake after the finish gun on a reaching leg at least.

Others declare a nominal finish between two committee boats which travel in reverse direction back down the fleet starting at the leader's position when the gun goes, or even a single committee boat and estimated 90 degree angle to the rhumb line.

Originally posted by Brass


By 'sailed the wrong course' I take it you mean, for example, missed a mark or rounded a mark in the wrong direction.
My concern here is, can a busy race committee guarantee that they observed every boat rounding every mark and kept a proper count of marks, and their order, so that they can guarantee that they have penalised all boats that broke rule 28 and have not made any mistakes?

It's basically an administrative convenience and saves hearings. If a boat disagrees with the RC's observation and considers she sailed the course correctly she may of course request redress and a hearing would proceed in much the same way.
The accuracy thing is like OCS/black flag. The RC can't guarantee they've spotted everyone who got it wrong, but you do your best. Nothing precludes another competitor protesting.
But you must remember things are very different on a 50 acre lake than they are with two mile legs on hazy open water!

Originally posted by Brass


What you do if the boat sails lap 1 correctly, lap 2 with a rule 28 error, then lap 3 correctly, is getting very difficult: in that case disqualification is the only way it's going to work.

Lets suppose the course is A->B->C->D->E->F-> indefinite number of repeats
A boat passes the wrong side of E. She is, presumably, still sailing the leg from D->E, since she may correct any errors and continue if she has not finished (28.2). She then sails round F, A, B, C, in which case she is leaving on either side marks which are not on the leg she is sailing (28.1). She then rerounds D, which is not prohibited (Cases 90, 106), and passes on the correct side of E. So, effectively, she has corrected the error.
Her string passes each mark on the correct side and, arguably, in the correct order, if you ignore the marks which are not on the leg she was sailing.
Her string touches each rounding mark and
passes between any gates.


Edited by JimC - 26 Jul 16 at 3:10pm
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz