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200 kicker how much

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Post Options Post Options   Quote piglet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: 200 kicker how much
    Posted: 26 Jun 16 at 9:41pm
When it's breeze on in the 200 how much is too much kicker?
Without lowers I'm starting to worry about the mast letting go.
Expert opinions gratefully received.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ClubRacer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jun 16 at 10:19pm
in the 4 it tends to be until the bottom batten inverts then off a little is maxed out

with a similar shape main I cant see why it would be much different 

certainly when mines maxed out I'm more worried about my boom looking like a banana 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote ClubRacer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 16 at 6:21pm
have you tried asking on the 200 fb page?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jaydub Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 16 at 6:24pm
Ok, not top end of the 200 fleet by any means but now in my 13th season of sailing 2s, so hopefully my thoughts are not to far off the mark. (!!)

First of all when you are overpowered, the cunningham is your best friend.  Loosens the leach and promotes even mast bend.

In terms of kicker, unless it is really honking pull on as much as you need to control the power.  I've yet to see a 200 mast go.

There is  stage however where it pays to let a bit of kicker off, especially if it is gusty.  I guess in theory you may lose a bit of pointing ability, but the boat becomes more manageable and that counts for more.  A flatter boat with a looser leach will point higher than one with more kicker that is spending half it's life heeled over.

There is a sweet spot with 200s when it is windy.  Get the balance right and it is very manageable; get it wrong and you will spend your whole life going from being powered up too much and then luffing up too far and the boat coming over on top of you and losing speed then bearing away and.....    
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Post Options Post Options   Quote piglet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 16 at 8:58am
[QUOTE=jaydub]when you are overpowered, the cunningham is your best friend.

In terms of kicker, unless it is really honking pull on as much as you need to control the power.  I've yet to see a 200 mast go.

get it wrong and you will spend your whole life going from being powered up too much and then luffing up too far and the boat coming over on top of you [/QUOTE

Thanks Jaydub, this is what I need.
Re. Cunningham we just have a single block tied to the Dyneema primary, is that enough?
I find the Cunningham just goes solid and won't move anymore, it only flattens the top 2 battens a bit.
I have only been whacking the Cunningham on after the kicker is maxed, should it be going on earlier?
Should I be getting heaps more on (moron?)

I'm winding the kicker until the lower mast looks frightening, hasn't broken yet though.
We have discovered that when it's really silly (25+) ease the kicker and let the leech fall off.

I need to find this sweetspot you talk of, in silly gusty conditions we really struggle to keep on top of things, usually arriving at the top mark full of water.

Thanks


Edited by piglet - 30 Jun 16 at 8:59am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jaydub Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 16 at 1:42pm
Originally posted by piglet

 
Thanks Jaydub, this is what I need.
Re. Cunningham we just have a single block tied to the Dyneema primary, is that enough?
I find the Cunningham just goes solid and won't move anymore, it only flattens the top 2 battens a bit.
I have only been whacking the Cunningham on after the kicker is maxed, should it be going on earlier?
Should I be getting heaps more on (moron?)

I'm winding the kicker until the lower mast looks frightening, hasn't broken yet though.
We have discovered that when it's really silly (25+) ease the kicker and let the leech fall off.

I need to find this sweetspot you talk of, in silly gusty conditions we really struggle to keep on top of things, usually arriving at the top mark full of water.

Thanks

The cunningham is a simple 4:1 purchase, so your set up is right.
 
Kicker / cunningham is a balance.  Leave the Cunningham as late as possible as the open leach will impact pointing ability.  Keep on increasing kicker and only use the cunningham if you want to take the worst of the creases out.  

Once you are overpowered to the extent that you are having to play the main even in the lulls, pull on the cunningham as much as you can.  Move your jib cars back to the rearmost hole on the track to open the slot.  The boat then becomes much easier to handle.

If it is stupidly gusty, it helps to release the kicker a bit so you get a bit more natural exhaust from the leach.

Make sure your spreader and rig tension settings are about right for your weight.  Think about dropping the rig back either half a hole or a a full hole on the shroud adjusters.  I don't bother, but I know others do.

The sweet spot is there, but I can't tell you how I found it.  The windward jib tales should be lifting a lot, but not so much you lose power.

If it horribly shifty and gusty, then you can't maintain it the whole time.  Luff into the gusts a bit more and play the main to keep the boat on its feet and bear away a tad as soon as the worst of the gust passes.

At the end of the day, it's all about feel for the boat, which you will only get by practicing.

Finally a bit of weight makes life easier.  If you are only 18-19 stone all up then you are always going to find it more difficult than if you are 21-22 stone. Whatever weight you are, technique is the key.

 



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Post Options Post Options   Quote piglet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 16 at 2:35pm
Originally posted by jaydub

Leave the Cunningham as late as possible as the open leach will impact pointing ability. 
play the main even in the lulls, pull on the cunningham as much as you can.
Move your jib cars back to the rearmost hole on the track to open the slot.

If it is stupidly gusty, it helps to release the kicker a bit so you get a bit more natural exhaust from the leach.

The windward jib tales should be lifting a lot, but not so much you lose power.


OK, it doesn't sound like we are that far off in principle, technique is another matter!
We have been leaving the cars back all the time, even in the light stuff.
Next time I will pull the Cunningham until the screws start pulling out.
Interesting point about lifting telltales, I have always tried to keep both sides flowing though I'm not very good at it.
We are 135-140Kg but not young or fit, none of this toe nail stuff I'm afraid.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jaydub Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 16 at 7:01pm
Tell tales like that are the windy setting to balance the boat.

Despite what Mike Mac says in his Dinghy Show talks, I find it better to stream both tell tales in 'boat speed' conditions, although others at the club do seem to prefer a higher pointing mode.

As an exercise, tip your boat on the side, and apply sufficient kicker just to keep the leach taut, then apply max cunningham.  It's quite illuminating, especially the impact on mast bend.

Try varying the outhaul, as well.  It doesn't have as much impact on a fully battened sail as you might think.

We're not young either.  We don't rely on 'gung ho' hiking either.  My wife is not very tall, but I have noticed her legs seem to become even shorter when she is expected to hike. ;)

Technique is the key.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote piglet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 16 at 9:27pm
Very good,
I will report back when we have had a chance to try all this.
Glad to hear my 'crew who must be obeyed' isn't the only one out there with hiking issues.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote piglet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 16 at 10:47pm
Yes, I get the bit about the Cunningham now.
It was sufficiently breezy on sunday to try things out.
With kicker maxed I pulled the Cunningham as hard as I could with 1 hand.
The boat immediately rolled towards us as the leech opened and the mast was more evenly curved than horribly bent over the boom.
Now need to get flatter and search for the elusive groove that we are definitely not in.
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