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Luffing rights

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Post Options Post Options   Quote about  a boat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Luffing rights
    Posted: 22 Sep 15 at 12:48pm
This might be a bit of a basic question. I understand how luffing rights are established by a leeward boat on a beat and do not have a problem with that. My two questions are:

Why is a boat (with luffing rights) allowed to push another up to head to wind? and;

Why is the method of establishing the overlap so important as to give rise to this right?

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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 15 at 12:57pm
Tradition is probably as good an answer as any...

But I suppose it was about blocking people who came from behind and attempted to take your wind.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 15 at 6:10pm
Originally posted by about a boat

Why is a boat (with luffing rights) allowed to push another up to head to wind? and;

IMHO, because after the abandonment of "mast abeam" hails in 97, you have to stop somewhere. HtW seems as good a place as any. Relatively easy to determine. 

Originally posted by about a boat

Why is the method of establishing the overlap so important as to give rise to this right? 

Again, without "mast abeam", a way of limiting the power of boats overtaking close to leeward was needed. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 15 at 6:42pm
My unreliable memory tells me that even before mast abeam was removed you couldn't luff when overtaking from astern. I assume it has been kept all through from the IRPCS and overtaking boat keep clear. It also seems "fair", though as some rules don't, you can't always judge things by that.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 15 at 6:50pm
Yeah, its been the case since at least 1989 rules (earliest I have handy) that you couldn't luff when overtaking from leeward, but you could luff if you came up from below. And gosh, isn't the phrasing of the rules from back then clumsy. Don't let anyone tell you that pre rewrite rules were clearer and easier to follow...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 15 at 9:21pm
I don't wish to be rude, but technically, 'luff' and 'luffing' are highly ambiguous terms which have not been used or defined in the RRS since 1995.

Their use almost always causes confusion in rules discussions.

If you are talking and thinking in terms of 'luffing rights', then you are applying the wrong conceptual approach to the modern rules.

The issues here are simply:

* Has a windward boat kept clear;

* Has a leeward boat changing course towards the wind given a windward overlapped boat room to keep clear as required by rule 16; and

* Has a boat that has become overlapped to leeward from clear astern within two of her hull lengths sailed above her proper course contrary to rule 17.

As others have said, the old concept of luffing rights was probably meant to implement a basic human right of a boat ahead to 'protect her wind' or something.

That is still available through the ability of a right of way leeward boat to change course, subject to the limitations of rules 16 and 17.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Sep 15 at 4:12pm
Originally posted by Rupert

My unreliable memory tells me that even before mast abeam was removed you couldn't luff when overtaking from astern.

Yes, exactly. Because the w/ward boat had been ahead of mast abeam when the overlap was established. 

To luff as a leeward, overtaking boat, you had get to clear ahead, and then when WW established a new overlap, you could luff her. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote PeterG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Sep 15 at 6:43pm
To luff as a leeward, overtaking boat, you had get to clear ahead, and then when WW established a new overlap, you could luff her. 

My memory is not what it was, and I don't keep old sets of rules handy, so I may be wrong, but my memory is not that you had to get clear ahead and then create an overlap from infront. Surely all that was needed was to get your mast in front of abeam - then you could luff until it was no more?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Sep 15 at 7:02pm
No, you did have to get clear ahead. I can't be bothered to type in the full horror of the then rules, see if you can read this:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/56735928@N05/albums/72157658588431679
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Sep 15 at 8:04pm
Clear ahead and then you could luff until your mast was level with their helm, roughly,and they would say "mast abeam". You'll still hear it sometimes, even now...

Personally, I think I preferred having limits on the luffing.

And yes, the idea now is whether you are not constrained from sailing above your proper course, but it is still luffing, were all know that!
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