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Presuming Ed View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Aug 15 at 9:25pm
Overtaking boat keep clear was in the first IYRU rules in 59. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Aug 15 at 10:25pm
And in my 1947 copy.

But it took about two pages of complicated text to qualify it to it worked for racing.

Maybe I'm mellowing, but I'm less inclined to get uptight about 'overtaking' these days.

As long as you define 'overtaking' as clear astern, and don't forget that it does not trump port/starboard, 'overtaking boat keep clear' works most of the time.

I'm inclined to agree with the poster who said that Boat O probably thought windward/leeward applied because she was downwind and astern.

And I'd be very careful about wording a protest decision saying a boat broke both rule 12 and rule 15:  that seems to invite the question 'How could a boat required to keep clear under rule 12 then be a right of way boat failing to give room?'

Probably better to hitch your wagon to one or the other.
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Presuming Ed View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Aug 15 at 11:21pm
I'd go with 15. (And 14, but exonerated due to lack of damage)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Aug 15 at 7:55am
Wouldn't rule 15 suggest that if you hit a boat on the leeward side of the transom you are breaking a different rule to the one you would be if you hit them on the windward side? I can see loads of protest room confusion in that, especially as it is quite possible that the boat being hit will have felt the bump but not seen it, and so not know which side.
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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Aug 15 at 8:05am
It would seem to, but I was influenced in my thinking by Case 30, which to me seems to be to be saying that the clear behind boat was already failing to keep clear just before she overlapped the rudder of the other boat, so was the first to break a rule. My understanding was that subsequent events were a consequence of astern breaking that rule, so ahead gets exonerated.

So in Brass's point, I guess I hitch my cart to 12, since the subsequent RRS15 breach would not have occurred if astern had kept clear.

Is that a reasonable guideline for amateur PCs Brass? Look for the first rule breach and penalise for that, and then decide whether subsequent rule breaches by the other boat were inevitable after the first one (in which case exoneration comes in) or alternatively could readily have been avoided (in which case penalise both)?

Edited by JimC - 04 Aug 15 at 8:11am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Aug 15 at 8:51am
Originally posted by Rupert

Wouldn't rule 15 suggest that if you hit a boat on the leeward side of the transom you are breaking a different rule to the one you would be if you hit them on the windward side? I can see loads of protest room confusion in that, especially as it is quite possible that the boat being hit will have felt the bump but not seen it, and so not know which side.

It's all on the definition of keep clear.

Keep Clear A boat keeps clear of a right-of-way boat (a) if the right-of-way boat can sail her course with no need to take avoiding action and, (b) when the boats are overlapped, if the right-of-way boat can also change course in both directions without immediately making contact.

Room The space a boat needs in the existing conditions, including space to comply with her obligations under the rules of Part 2 and rule 31, while manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way.

The definition of
Clear Astern and Clear Ahead; Overlap One boat is clear astern of another when her hull and equipment in normal position are behind a line abeam from the aftermost point of the other boat’s hull and equipment in normal position. The other boat is clear ahead. They overlap when neither is clear astern. ...

means that, with these boats having transom hung rudders, there is a very brief overlap  - the boats are "rudder overlapped" before contact. So 12 doesn't apply.

Wording of 15 is:
15 ACQUIRING RIGHT OF WAY When a boat acquires right of way, she shall initially give the other boat room to keep clear, ....

Astern was unable to "sail her course with no need to take avoiding action", so Ahead didn't keep clear. If Astern hit so close to Ahead's rudder that any luff would have resulted in immediate contact with the rudder, then part b of the definition also applies. 

15 means that Astern has to give ahead room to keep clear, which she didn't. 

The rules make no mention of transoms -, and the wording of overlap is specifically "hull and equipment". On boats with underhung rudders, it's quite straightforward that hitting the transom = breach of 12. 

If astern hits the windward side of the transom, then she's broken 11. 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Aug 15 at 9:09am
The trouble with that ultra literal interpretation is that it suggests that if boat A is 1 mm astern of boat B then A is keeping clear of B since B can change course in either direction without making contact.

However, if we go to case 30 and Case 88 it seems that a bit more than that is required. In particular Case 88 says:
‘Keep clear’ means something more than ‘avoid contact’; otherwise the rule would contain those or similar words.


The implications of that seem to me to be are that if the keep clear boat is so close to the other boat that ordinary relative variations in speed through natural changes in wind and water are liable to to bring them in contact without action by the crews then it is not keeping clear. So it seems to me that on small boats on flat water with a steady wind that distance might be a moderate number of inches, on big boats in a rough sea it might be several feet, but either way if astern establishes an overlap on aheads rudder while she is within that sort of range then she was failing to keep clear immediately before establishing the overlap, and the subsequent collision would not have occurred without that rule breach. But I am probably wrong!

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Post Options Post Options   Quote about  a boat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Aug 15 at 9:09am
Thanks for the replies.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote laser193713 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Aug 15 at 9:22am
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by laser193713

If he plainly sails up behind you then he is the overtaking boat and must keep clear.


No such rule.

I'm not Brass, but lets go through this.

It started off with you (Y) more or less stopped on the start line and the other boat (O) coming from behind, no overlap. RuLe 12 applies, O must keep clear of Y.

O claims that he gained an overlap to leeward of Ys rudder, and became ROW boat, so Rule 11 starts to apply, and Y will henceforth need to keep clear of O.

So far so good, but we then get onto part B. Rule 15: When a boat acquires ROW she shall initially give the other boat room to keep clear. And you need to read this with the definitions of room and keep clear. If O is alongside Ys rudder then Y cannot turn to windward or the stern swing will make contact. So Y is unable to turn to windward, which I think means Y has not been given room to keep clear. In addition, reading case 30, I think that there's a sound argument that H, in making the overlap within inches of Ys rudder, was not keeping clear just before the overlap occurred.

So, unless a wiser (wo)man on the PC corrects me, I disqualify H under rule 12 and rule 15, and exonerate Y for a breach of rule 11 that was a result of H breaking 12 & 15.

Case 24 and 30 in the case book are worth reading.

However, and its a big however, when you hear the other party's version of events these things can look very different...

I knew someone would....

The simplification for someone who claims to not know the rules off by heart is that if someone gains an overlap from behind (overtaking), in most normal sailing situations, then you are highly likely to be the right of way boat. 

For the records, I wasn't even thought of when the overtaking boat rule was written, in fact, my parents weren't even born! What I do know is that I have a very solid grasp of the rules, more so in fact than some supposed 'international jury' members who I have witnessed in the protest room. It can be quite scary watching the experts get it wrong with the book right under their nose! I wouldn't for a minute sit there and quote rule numbers to someone who is unsure of the rules and just does a bit of club racing here and there. I will readily quote rule numbers at a professional tactician who refuses to listen when I shut them out on a start line or leeward mark, or in a protest room, but only then. Those sailors who blurt out every number they can think of to scare or confuse are just awful, I hate it. How many rugby matches do you watch where the ref quotes the numbers as well as the rules, none, it just confuses the players, and the fans.  




Edited by laser193713 - 04 Aug 15 at 9:32am
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Peaky View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Peaky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Aug 15 at 9:32am
I'd say the boat clear astern prior to the collision was not keeping clear immediately prior to contact, because the boat clear ahead would have had to take preemptive action to avoid contact, whilst still right of way boat.
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