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How can this be fair race management? |
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iGRF
Really should get out more Joined: 07 Mar 11 Location: Hythe Online Status: Offline Posts: 6496 |
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Topic: How can this be fair race management? Posted: 06 Jan 15 at 9:23am |
Look at the Halo and Phantom in 5th and 6th position.
Why are they that way round? What cock a maimie rule set up delivers that sort of decision and why has it come about? With less overall points and a lower discard surely it should be the other way round and what are all these half points? Anybody? What's going on was it some sort of pursuit calculation? |
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Time Lord
Far too distracted from work Joined: 03 Dec 13 Location: Warwickshire Online Status: Offline Posts: 301 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 06 Jan 15 at 9:33am |
Take the time to read the RSS and the appendix on scoring.
When you compare the two sets of scores, of the countable scores, the Halo has the lowest score of 3.5 compared with the Phantom's 4. The discards are exactly what they say they are ie discards which do not count for scoring purposes. A fairly basic situation which will occur several times at an Open meeting. |
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Merlin Rocket 3609
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PeterG
Really should get out more Joined: 12 Jan 08 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 818 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 06 Jan 15 at 9:37am |
But the Halo had the lowest single race score after discards - 3.5. (No idea where the 0.5 came from - a tie with the D0 probably?)
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Peter
Ex Cont 707 Ex Laser 189635 DY 59 |
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Time Lord
Far too distracted from work Joined: 03 Dec 13 Location: Warwickshire Online Status: Offline Posts: 301 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 06 Jan 15 at 9:46am |
To clarify this further, iGRF needs to read RRS Appendix 1, section 8 as below:
SERIES TIES A8.1 If there is a series-score tie between two or more boats, each boat’s race scores shall be listed in order of best to worst, and at the first point(s) where there is a difference the tie shall be broken in favour of the boat(s) with the best score(s). No excluded scores shall be used. NB before you ask excluded scores mean discards. The half a point is easily explained as the Halo tied with another boat in that race - again covered in RRS section 8. I sincerely hope someone else does the race scoring down in deepest Kent! |
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Merlin Rocket 3609
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iGRF
Really should get out more Joined: 07 Mar 11 Location: Hythe Online Status: Offline Posts: 6496 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 06 Jan 15 at 10:46am |
So if that is the case, how do you explain the tie break of the Merlln and the Scorpion further down? at 13/14
That Halo/Phantom result is unfair whichever way you call it, they tied, but the Phantom had lower points and a lower discard, had in fact beaten the Halo more than he'd beaten him, makes the whole point of racing any more than the last race irrelevant. Stupid is as stupid does. f**ked up is what it is how do you score a third and a half against the other guys four ffs? Edited by iGRF - 06 Jan 15 at 10:51am |
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turnturtle
Really should get out more Joined: 05 Dec 14 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2538 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 06 Jan 15 at 10:53am |
it's just a change in scoring procedure to make sure a discard is a full discard. I can see your POV though, secondly from a 3 race series is their any need for a discard anyway? edit: when did a DNF begin scoring the same as a DNS? Surely getting around just one lap should put me a point above those who stayed in bed?
Edited by turnturtle - 06 Jan 15 at 10:55am |
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iGRF
Really should get out more Joined: 07 Mar 11 Location: Hythe Online Status: Offline Posts: 6496 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 06 Jan 15 at 11:00am |
Time was if only three races were sailed they all counted and discards were recognised as the next call on a tie break, this system smacks of more of that Olympics double points on the last race scoring bullsh*t.
Don't you lot ever protest at this sort of crap? Edited by iGRF - 06 Jan 15 at 11:01am |
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turnturtle
Really should get out more Joined: 05 Dec 14 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2538 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 06 Jan 15 at 11:17am |
pussification... the discard allows for Olympic level gear failure, thus not rewarding the boy scout who can keep a boat on the water by his or herself for an entire regatta and has the stones to sail every race- where maybe, just maybe, the discard might actually count for something in the event of a tie break.
Of course, being conservative types, I'm sure ISAF wouldn't have changed it without reason.......
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Rupert
Really should get out more Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 06 Jan 15 at 11:19am |
It has been this way for a couple of decades at least - I'm sure a rules expert can ut a date on it.
13/14 is done in exactly the same way - 10 beats 11. Whether a discard is allowed is a different thing to how the scoring is done once it is. Pesonally, I have been both winner and loser in the system. What it does is reward the best result of an open, rather than punish the worst, which is what you get if you count the discard in a tie break. So long as everyone (apart from a few poeple who can't be arsed to read the SIs) knows the system, I can't see that it matters, so long as it is consistant. In terms of discards, there can be many reasons for having them. In the Minisails, I've been counting 2 from 4 races in a series, but bunging the better discard in as a tie break where neccessary. This has allowed 1 boat to be sailed by 2 different people and have them both qualify! Unique circumstances that more established classes don't really need, but made for a more fun day of sailing. In the Lightnings there is a discard, but all the races individually go forwards for the Traveller Series results, meaning it is still worthwhile for the boat who has, say, won the first 2 races to try hard in the 3rd, despite winning the event already. |
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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JimC
Really should get out more Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6649 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 06 Jan 15 at 11:22am |
Can't get excited about it. All scoring systems are fair, all scoring systems are unfair. They all have pros and cons. Its ironic that computer based systems encourage uniformity because its easier to use the official default rather than set it up for a club's own preference.
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