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blaze720 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 14 at 5:31pm
 ..... Ayatollah the 'Dark Prince' Lyons he who controlleth the Great Lakes system with the power of his mind.

Absolutely ...and with limited 'thought power' available (it comes to all of us with age of course) for a modest fee what would you like the venerable EPS's 'Great Lakes' number to be ?  Not that I've ever seen one at an SJ event so what is the point ?... And btw and before you get too excited I don't do 'new classes' numbers ... no not for anyone !

Seriously I don't know what you have against Simon Lovesey now - he has not a lot to do with the GL system, and never did.   (But I bet if he put a tracker on you it would be interesting !)

The clubs that pool their results together to create the GL 'adjustments'  are only doing what the RYA want individual clubs to do anyway.  YOU presumably were recently encouraged by Bas to have a 'handicap officer' at Hythe - good move - and the said officer will presumably will modify your local club handicaps in time ?  .. er almost the same maybe ? 

All that the GL system does, and the clubs that use it within the Sailjuice Series do, is make handicap adjustments against their own collective data pool.... Almost EXACTLY what Bas seems to be telling individual clubs they should be doing !  ... and you seem to now believe in (!)...The GL results are used to justify their numbers in exactly the same way as your local results should justify any local changes your club makes.

Only thing is .... YOU really have to race in the SJ series to get them to adjust their numbers and only then if the results justify it ... and they do apply a different weighting and look more towards the front of each class .... but that is not so different to doing it at individual club level by the RYA bible surely ?

See you at Datchet / Grafham / Oxford / QMSC / Northampton etc etc then ? 

Mike L.


Edited by blaze720 - 02 Dec 14 at 5:34pm
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 14 at 8:26pm
This is why he is my current 'hate' figure..

Originally posted by Simon Lovesey

This has been a fascinating discussion on handicaps for new designs,  but one with plenty of deja-vu over the years
The current practise is to look at the boat specs and compare,  find a similar design  then guess at a handicap that is worst than the benchmark class so the new design doesn't whip everyone on its first outings.  Then as more real data emerges the handicap will tend to rise to its more natural position
IMHO in these days of more data being available and more accessible technology, there should be a better and fairer way of handling new classes,  and I plan to ask this to be added to the agenda to the next PYaG meeting.  
In PYS we now have nearly a million rows of results data with times.  Over the last year SailRacer have also  GPS tracked more than 1,000 races which gives plenty of performance data,  particularly as we have also measured and recorded the course,  often with wind data and sometimes tidal flows.
With all this data I am sure we can do much more.


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Rupert View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 14 at 9:04pm
Nope, I'm none the wiser - Simon appears to be working hard to make the system fair - even if you disagree with some of the methods, I can't see a reason for hatred.
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail
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Simon Lovesey View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Simon Lovesey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 14 at 6:01am

Originally posted by iGRF

and it is all Simon Loveseys fault I have decided, he is my new hate figure, denying me a new boat the b**tard.

iGRF -   Confused  very sorry if I have offended,  not quite sure what I have done wrong and my parents may disagree with your conclusion.

A few chances to ask the questions you seem to have in person :

Tonight I am presenting at Brightlingsea SC :

Next week will be at the Yacht Racing Forum,  where SailRacer is a media partner

Then GJW Direct SailJuice Winter Series II,  Datchet -  I am sure someone here could find you a suitable boat :

Failing that you are most welcome to join us for a cup of coffee at the SailRacer office
Nice harbour side location,  opposite Sir Ben's new HQ

We may even be able to get our neighbour Alex to take you sailing on his bandit boat


Last month, I presented at International Sailing Summit on some of our work:
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 14 at 8:54am
Simon your task is simple, stop prejudicing new boat sales by encouraging harsh handicaps, encourage your 'friends' on the PYAG to adopt a 'formula' for new boats based on the length, weight, sail area, crew weight/righting moment and use that for the first three months/necessary period to collate race data.

And stop mind melding with the Dark Prince or any of his pals in the trade.

Then nobody can accuse you and your pals of anything and all be be well in the garden..

Smell those Roses!
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Simon Lovesey View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Simon Lovesey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 14 at 9:08am
Originally posted by iGRF

Simon your task is simple, stop prejudicing new boat sales by encouraging harsh handicaps

But I have stated on several occasions that I think the method of handicapping new designs is wrong and there are better ways.
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 14 at 9:19am
Good, then broadly we are in agreement then?

So, who has to be the new target for ironic abuse if not you?

Where does the responsibility lie?

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blaze720 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 14 at 10:21am

Good, then broadly we are in agreement then?

Well that is bound to kill an otherwise entertaining thread .. and just when a few of us were wondering where the deckchairs had got to ...

Shock horror !  Sudden agreement breaks out.  (it will surely be over by Christmas etc ....)

But in the meantime I guess the lurkers will have to fall back upon one forum certainty ... the likely  '100 year forum 'ero wars'  to entertain....  (available on both Y&Y and SA ). 

Come on there must be something new not involving PN's or 'centre-strap' singlehander stone throwing  ..

Mike L.


    



Edited by blaze720 - 03 Dec 14 at 10:25am
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 15 at 9:29pm
So a month has passed and a new year dawned and for one family or move or daughters of darkness reason or another today was the first time back, it's a new series and apparently it's customary to run the start of every series as a pursuit race.

Not something I've ever experienced before, it's enough down that lake to remember the mark rounding sequence and wether to take them port or starboard, trussed up in a death bag, temperature 1 degree, fumbling in gloves, not the sharpest of sails, yet despite starting last I think my 6 minute was after the Solos and the three minute was as the Laser departed, I ended up damn close to winning it, had I not had one of my classic senior moments falling into the bottom of the boat, then another issue with that stupid harness rig thing coming adrift and leaving me without the main sheet for a couple of wild gybes down wind when the cable tie securing it snapped, I could have won.

So what is my point?

The point is, how is it possible to make that ludicrous ground up coming from behind when imv it simply isn't feasible if we all start together. Now they were all out, Miracle, Europe, Solos, Streaker, Laser, the only boats missing were the 300 and the Rooster.

I've been going over and over it in my head, I wasn't sailing exceptionally well, I got a couple of shifts and a couple of good mark rounding as I came through, but I've sailed much better in conventional races and not done as well, what is it about a pursuit that does this? Has anyone else had any similar experience?

Maybe it's down to psychology once out front, not needing to push hard to keep making up time, i guess from years of not needing to worry about time if you are in the lead, maybe it's easier to catch up than gain ground, there is an element of that, it's easy to spot a boat in front making a shift error and indeed what the shifts definitely going to do before it reaches you, anyway it was an interesting experience, kind of gives the lie to the handicap being wrong though doesn't it? i may have to STFU in future.
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craiggo View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote craiggo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 15 at 9:36pm
Its not uncommon in a reasonable sized handicap start to get some form of bad air off of the start line, or alternatively one balls-up shortly ater the start due to the pressure can drop you back into the pack and into bad air.
Typically on a pursuit race at club level the number of competitors is so small that you inevitably get clear air for most of your race.

So it suggests that you are cr*p at finding a good lane off the start and maintaining your concentration for the full length of the first leg ;)
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