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How I learned to forget bandits & enjoy fair play

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iGRF View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: How I learned to forget bandits & enjoy fair play
    Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 10:16am
Thanks to Bas Edmonds and a most informative explanation of the Portsmouth Yardstick system and its workings, we now have a handicap officer and she will attempt to drag H&SSC into the twenty-first century.

I may not still agree with the system for issuing EN's but the rest of it has given me a bit more confidence that our future could be more entertaining shall we say.

We had a great evening, with key sailors from both the Redoubt and Hythe in attendance there was a lively Q & A session and I think everyone left with something from the talk, it was a good night I'd thoroughly recommend it if you can persuade Bas & Debbie to come to your club.

As to the system I do now understand some of the discrepancies, should actually formerly apologise to those PYAG group who I must have offended on many occasion due to ignorance as to their remit. (They are strictly told to ignore anything other than the data and that and that alone is relied on to defend their decisions.) Having said that a degree more transparency might better explain that and other than the fact they are kept in a dark smoke filled room and fed figures, we know nothing officially about them. A thankless task just the same, would I do it under those conditions? Absolutely not. So my sincere apologies to you Gentlemen whoever you are.

As to the rest of it, used properly I can see it could be a great system, we have a few issues as a small club where it could be viewed as personal, but the the flip side of that is the purchase of known Bandit craft could also be seen as personal and for those who accuse poor old Bas of ruining their class when their class was only built precisely because it had allegedly Bandit advantage you could say hard luck to.

My personal grievance however in the purchase and acquisition of new craft remains unsuccessfully explained, a new craft should be measured given there is no data and it is chicken and egg you can't get data unless it is allowed to race it can't race without a number. The simple answer if a measurement based system is not likely to be employed is to give every new craft 1000 for its first 3 months or 12 races then re-adjust and do that four times in its first year, this system could do it, it has the capability.

Anyway we're better equipped going forward than we were yesterday at this time so I'm glad of that, it won't help the Icon and the jury is still out regarding the D0 and other anomalies, but the key fact is you don't worry about them, really you use the system to declare UDI and it takes the blame and that is what we'll strive to use.

Thanks again Bas and sorry again to PYAG bods.

Edited by iGRF - 28 Nov 14 at 10:19am
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Null View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Null Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 10:23am
f**k me!!!  It really is Black Friday.  Grumpf admits he is wrong and apologises.
 
These talks that Bas pulls together go a great way in helping people understand how sailing clubs should adopt and use the system.  Its like i have said before its the understanding of how the system shoudl work thats the problem.  Not the system itself!!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 10:24am
+1 - well done Graeme  Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 10:49am
Originally posted by Null

f**k me!!!  It really is Black Friday.  Grumpf admits he is wrong and apologises.
 

He will be putting a deposit down for a D Zero this afternoon  LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Peaky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 11:33am
Et tu, Graeme?    

Another zombie... ;-)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 11:45am
Originally posted by iGRF

 The simple answer if a measurement based system is not likely to be employed is to give every new craft 1000 for its first 3 months or 12 races then re-adjust and do that four times in its first year, this system could do it, it has the capability.

I can see that total de-politicises it, and neutralises any attempt for the system to be abused by a manufacturer for marketing purposes.

As an early adopter, I would be happy racing off an EN of a 1000 for a fixed term/qualification period.  

 It at least puts the ownership of the process firmly into the hands of the PYAG, rather than a manufacturer, and of course nothing to stop a club adjusting locally if the 1000 seems abundantly wrong for a number of their members.

I guess the only concern is what if there simply isn't enough returns, or spread of data from multiple source, to base a number on?  Could a low volume class, maybe raced by just one or two people, permanently be in a qualifying period with a 1000, or are the PYAG forced into giving it a proper EN, with really rather sketchy data to base their decision on?    



Edited by kneewrecker - 28 Nov 14 at 11:45am
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 11:53am
I didn't say I was wrong, the point of enlightenment was that Bas explained the remit for the PYAG is so rigid, so it is not 'their' (the PYAG's)fault. I still feel the National scale is badly out of kilter, but the point they make, they don't care, it is what it is because of the data, if you don't like it, use the system to produce your own, they will then feed off it if they feel it's relevant. The way it worked in the past was just circular with little exception, since the new system they launched in 2010 (which I must have missed)is more reactive to input.

I'm also guilty (hands up again) with tagging them with the sins of Sailjuice and Sailracer, lumping them all together was wrong, I need to focus my 'hate' in a different direction, it's those b**tards that prejudice new craft, not the RYA or PYAG and more likely them that are influenced by the 'Industrial Class Complex' that certainly rings true.

It won't stop me working on this endless spreadsheet, i nearly got there then threw myself totally out with crew number and righting moment.

Edited by iGRF - 28 Nov 14 at 11:54am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 12:04pm
As an early adopter of a 49er, I could live with the 1000 EN, as an Oppie adopter, I'm not sure I'd like it as much.

It's clear that you touched on the adjustment at local level giving rise to, in effect, personal PY's. Given the general dislike of personal PY's expressed in an earlier thread, I'm surprised Grumph felt that this was compensated by bandits having their noses put out of joint.

The PY-scheme with lots of immediate feedback to the RYA/Sailracer site in recent years has shown itself well capable of dealing with bandits (vide the Phantom PY). You don't need to spoil the motivation of the majority to achieve that.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Simon Lovesey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 12:26pm
Originally posted by iGRF


I'm also guilty (hands up again) with tagging them with the sins of Sailjuice and Sailracer, lumping them all together was wrong, I need to focus my 'hate' in a different direction, it's those b**tards that prejudice new craft, not the RYA or PYAG and more likely them that are influenced by the 'Industrial Class Complex' that certainly rings true.

Hang on where have you got that from ???

SailRacer runs the PYS Online system for the RYA and I personally sit on PYaG

We also run the GJW Direct SailJuice Winter Series

Nothing to hide

For the umpteen time SailRacer DO NOT set handicaps,  our systems certainly help in the decision making process and we end up using the numbers at events we run.

If you want to see some of what SailRacer, does check out my presentation at last week's International Sailing Summit

I actually agree there needs to be a better method of handling new craft,  and have made a few suggestions on how.  


Edited by Simon Lovesey - 28 Nov 14 at 12:38pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote PeterG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 12:40pm
Originally posted by Medway Maniac

As an early adopter of a 49er, I could live with the 1000 EN, as an Oppie adopter, I'm not sure I'd like it as much.

There's a solution to that. Allow the boats to race, use the first 12 races (or whatever number is decided on) to set an initial handicap, but don't count the results of those races towards any series placings, or whatever. So you have to do it for fun to start with if you are an early adopter - which is surely what we all do it for anyway  Wink
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