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How I learned to forget bandits & enjoy fair play

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kneewrecker View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 2:43pm
glad to see that in the four years since its launch, the RS100 has finally put to bed the quiet discontent over PYs and rig sizes.  

The class has effectively made themselves one-design- so a few folks have a legacy 'big' sail for light winds... sorry boys, but until those folks stop using them, then your 'average' PY ought to reflect what is actually happening with your class, singular.

Well done Great Lakes - looks absolutely right to me.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Peaky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 4:12pm
So, genuine question. Is the 100 a single class now with one PY, or is it as it always was - two classes with 2 PY.

With regards the PYAG, I respect the work they do greatly. But the process need not, should not, stop at the number crunching. Why can't these purely data based numbers the be passed to a committee of grey beards to approve or modify. Not on subjective taste but PY should be a forecast for the next year, not a record of the previous one. So if the I14s take some lead out, or Merlin's use a longer kite pole, or Blazes switch to a carbon mast, or 200s adopt a square head mainsail why not be proactive and set an adjustment when the rule change occurs. An estimated change is better than no change at all.

But well done GRF for organising the briefing and Bas for actually entering the lion' den!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 5:06pm
Originally posted by Simon Lovesey




I personally sit on PYaG
We also run the GJW Direct SailJuice Winter Series
Nothing to hide



What!!

And you don't think that's just an incy wincy bit of a massive conflict of interest?

Given your admission you penalise new classes deliberately.

Which I pointed out to Bas last night and he denied.

Plausible deniability, but makes your position untenable in this argument don't you think?
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blaze720 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 5:54pm

I think IGRF may be thinking that  'Sailracer'  'Sailjuice' and 'Great Lakes' are in some way one and the same thing in whole or in part. 

The  'Sailjuice' Series groups together a number of traditional winter handicap events (plus a couple of newer ones) in a series with their ‘Sailjuice’ name on it ...... 'Sailracer' (now don’t get confused) are often found adding trackers and providing a web based entry system for the SJ events ... and the events themselves (run by the host clubs note !) use the 'Great Lakes' handicap numbers.  The  GL handicappers  are NOT ‘Sailjuice’ ... or  ‘Sailracer.   Get it ?

Well that's how I see it anyway  !  Someone correct me if wrong ...

I too would like to see a better handling for 'new' classes led by the RYA.  Measurement based assessment is however very difficult to justify ... who decides on the weighting of each factor for example ?   Measuring for handicap assessment assumes every aspect of each design is primarily there for maximum speed ....  and it gets extremely over-complex if dealing  with some factors such as hull form.  Assessment simply has to be results based ... in some form.

The GL approach has got Icon closer to a reasonable handicap number ... and relatively quickly imo (2-3 years).  Answer for new classes ? – Race at your clubs, race in the major handicaps, accept in the short term an (inevitable) tough number ... it can and will change.  Today my club races Icon off 990, last year its GL number was 1000.. this year this was  adjusted slightly because of the issuing of an EN figure of 969.  So this year the GL number is also 990... in time I expect the ‘official’ EN/PN to be somewhere between 990 and 1000  as well (and certainly not the current 969 !).   It is not a major problem anyway if our clubs make the changes they should do anyway and most, if not all, of our ‘away’ handicap racing is under the GL approach.    

Anyway Friday now ...  Blessed relief.  Time to forget all this B*****s  and get back  into Icon sorting mode after a long enforced gap... Starting this Sunday I also need to remember to talk to a crew (remember ‘nicely’) and not crash tack etc without giving notice.    Now that is much more important.  

If you can do something similar !

Mike L.



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Post Options Post Options   Quote fab100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 6:07pm
Originally posted by Null

Thats a bit harsh Clive.  Whilst I agree with you I thought that it was just one class again now the 100's?  It was good to see a couple of you out at Draycote as previous years you all had hibernated over the winter.  But that could be why the handicap is fixed to one number.  Its also worth noting that if the 100 has two numbers then surely it is 2 classes and as such if you entered the one regatta with a 10.2 and one with a 8.4 thats two seperate enteries and would not count for the overall prize.

Is it? Although I confess to not understanding how its the SailJuice Series but "Great Lakes" get the woes over yardsticks. Who writes the SIs?

According to the RYA, it is two classes - it lists 2 PNs one for each rig. And that's pretty much how the class rules go too, rightly or wrongly (and to give James something to stir about at every opportunity) Does a Laser radial sail off the same as a standard rig?

If the 8.4 had been given the standard number (and I was that bothered about the series) I'd have used the 8.4 last week (and likely my result would have been worse)

The stats/system says the 8.4 sails to 1000. Would anyone else in the fleet want to give up 12 points for an admin issue?

Just sayin'

PS No hibernation, I only stop sailing in the winter if the pond freezes, but true I tend not to travel much
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Post Options Post Options   Quote fab100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 6:08pm
Crossed in the post Mike. Thanks.

And well done last Sunday
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Simon Lovesey View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Simon Lovesey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 6:19pm
Originally posted by blaze720

 

I think IGRF may be thinking that  'Sailracer'  'Sailjuice' and 'Great Lakes' are in some way one and the same thing in whole or in part.  

The  'Sailjuice' Series groups together a number of traditional winter handicap events (plus a couple of newer ones) in a series with their ‘Sailjuice’ name on it ...... 'Sailracer' (now don’t get confused) are often found adding trackers and providing a web based entry system for the SJ events ... and the events themselves (run by the host clubs note !) use the 'Great Lakes' handicap numbers.  The  GL handicappers  are NOT ‘Sailjuice’ ... or  ‘Sailracer.   Get it ?

Well that's how I see it anyway  !  Someone correct me if wrong ...  


Spot on and also think that the handling of new designs need to be improved


Edited by Simon Lovesey - 28 Nov 14 at 9:59pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 10:50pm
Originally posted by Medway Maniac

It's clear that you touched on the adjustment at local level giving rise to, in effect, personal PY's. Given the general dislike of personal PY's expressed in an earlier thread, I'm surprised Grumph felt that this was compensated by bandits having their noses put out of joint.


They are talking of introducing personal handicap dual scoring next year, he also indicated that they do have a windspeed formula in the system but the feeling is that it would be pretty impossible to use, where would you set it, given the humber of events where the wind starts of at one point and finishes at another and where do you measure it?
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Medway Maniac View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 11:00pm
... and who dares to measure/determine it?!
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