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The latest 'project' |
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iGRF
Really should get out more Joined: 07 Mar 11 Location: Hythe Online Status: Offline Posts: 6496 |
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Topic: The latest 'project' Posted: 04 Nov 13 at 2:22pm |
So, further to the shenanigans over on the Icon thread, I'm about to embark on another not exactly tame goose project, however, this time, it's a little more conventional and may or may not strike a chord with something some of you might or might not like the idea of.
So the position to date I've struck the bones of a deal with the folks from Cirrus and White Formula to let me abuse the bottom half of an Icon in order that I can end up with a two hander with a kite, maybe a trapeze and maybe some method of "SymAssying" to quote a wag on the Icon thread, but a universal kite system that could be fashioned either way if that could be possible and that basically is the first thing I'd like to discuss. I don't know much about Symmettric kites other than they look knaff and old fashioned and appear to me to act on the top half of the mast with greater potential to invert the mast/drive the boat down the mine, than even Assyms, but that might just be me, they do however appear to be smaller generally, monster 5oh's excepted. So the question is, has it been done before, did I read that RS200 ran their kites with a jib pole, was it like the Icon dangle pole? Why did the 200's drop their system, was it because it was more efficient than running Assym so negated the downwind tactics that assym sailing brings? Is it a stupid hair brained idea having both options? To me it seems logical that if one system works better on hot reaches then the other works better for soaking dead run conditions, then why not have both at your command, it might be a bit more efficient than the jolly old swinging pole I've enjoyed with the Alto but does suffer with quirky going wrong things more often than not in my boat (It's been re fashioned so many times). I know there is something called an MG14, so the hull has been successfully Assym kited, so making that work shouldn't be a problem, but what do y'all think about the other idea? Edited by iGRF - 04 Nov 13 at 2:24pm |
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laser193713
Really should get out more Joined: 13 May 09 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 889 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 04 Nov 13 at 2:43pm |
I can see how by having a separate pole outhaul line (as on a yacht, j boat style, or b14 etc style if you want to talk dinghies) you would be able to run 2 kites. With 2 halyards and 2 tack lines and either chutes or bags. 2 sets of sheets would be needed, especially if you wanted to swap between A sails and S sails. I don't think on a dinghy, especially a trapeze boat where the crew wants to be out keeping things upright, that having to swap kites over as you do on a yacht would work particularly well.
So in summary, I think the way to approach it is to go with A sails, fixed (non rotating) pole. The two sails you want to carry are a general purpose running kite (A2 if you are a yachtie) and a reaching kite (A3). To take things a step further perhaps when it is windy you might carry an A2 and an A5 or even an A4 and an A5. It would be a VERY complicated boat to sail and you would find your crew picking up the wrong set of kite sheets nearly every hoist! But hey, if what I have written hasn't put you off then go for it. I think there is a good reason why nobody else has done it, or if they have then a good reason why we don't see it more often but then for a one off, who cares!?
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Bootscooter
Really should get out more Joined: 15 May 07 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1094 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 04 Nov 13 at 2:55pm |
Apologies, but I've only skim-read the other thread and may be going over old ground, but why do you want to do this? Was it to make a boat that you could race effectively both on the oggin and the pond?
Some years back, when I decided to take up cycling again I went out a bought a hybrid. Great initially, as I thought I was getting the best of both worlds, but after a while I realised that it was neither fast enough on the road for what I wanted not capably of dealing with the rough/muddy stuff when off the beaten track. I ended up selling it to help fund the purchase of a decent road bike and a decent MTB. Now I've got the right tool for each job. |
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gordon1277
Really should get out more Joined: 24 Mar 10 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 665 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 04 Nov 13 at 3:06pm |
Hi Grf
we once tried having two symmetric kites on board a Kestrel One flat reacher and a full running kite. Fairly complicated but we had a laugh trying to make it work. I cannot see it being worth the effort to have both on at the same time, I think it would be best to rig one or the other depending upon course and conditions. |
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Gordon
Lossc |
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iGRF
Really should get out more Joined: 07 Mar 11 Location: Hythe Online Status: Offline Posts: 6496 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 04 Nov 13 at 3:12pm |
First, it's no good talking to me about lead mine stuff, I've very little experience of them, other than blue water cruising and pondering on having them fitted with 'cookers' (hookers who can cook) for birthday celebrations.
So don't know what an 'A' series of kites is, my original plan was to try and design a multi option kite, I had it in my head that it could have two 'foots' and instead of gybing like a regular assym, you just pull the foot across to be the new clew and it be double leading edged, then as you would have to have a continuous rope between both clew/feet, it could have a dangle pole attached should needs must on a run, that was my first thought. However it was pointed out it would be a compromise by the young sailmaker guy Neal Gibson and he suggested the idea of just having two, one permanently fitted to the front pole and the other stored in a back bag Miracle style and you simply select which one you want for the job at hand. Which would be more the Assym on the sea, and likely the Sym on the lake, you could switch between each but you'd have to be very sure of which rope to pull and I have to say as we currently stand I couldn't guarantee we'd pull the right rope, so I'm more leaning toward the compromise 'SymAssy' kite with two feet idea. |
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Noah
Really should get out more Joined: 29 Dec 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 611 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 04 Nov 13 at 3:13pm |
I guess there was a reason Rodney Pattison didn't pursue the twin kites idea on Super-D (or whichever FD it was) back in the day... 'Cos the overall benefit wasn't there. That was 2x Syms though - flat & deep. Combining an Assy & a Sym? Bowsprit & 'free' pole; 2 x halyard; 4 x sheet / guy; Twings for the Sym? If the hull is quick enough to utilise apparent wind then the Assy should be the default selection & the Sym almost never used. RTC on a little puddle though, you'll need the boat-handling skills nailed...
Would it be faster to do as (JimC I think) suggested & sail high early then pop the assy or start low & drop early to climb later? It'll be fascinating to follow the development... |
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Nick
D-Zero 316 |
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blaze720
Really should get out more Joined: 28 Sep 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1635 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 04 Nov 13 at 3:15pm |
Hi Greame
I had one of the very early 200's with the 'dual' system ... it was a long time ago now but can run through that system for you ... if you want. It is something you could rig up later if your basic asymetric concept needed an extra trick up its sleeve. That boat, the 200, was very often faster offwind effectively 'goose-winging' the spinnaker and for quite a lot of the time .. ie better VMG but then the NS/MG/Icon basis of your project will be much faster for much more of the time with bog standard asymetric set-up. I'd always go for KISS at least at first .. but if it is not the dogs whatsits for you you could add that facility later. Mike L. PS - I cannot keep calling it 'your project' or an NS/MG/Icon hybrid .. has it got a name yet ? |
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Noah
Really should get out more Joined: 29 Dec 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 611 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 04 Nov 13 at 3:19pm |
You'll have to draw the SymAssy for me Graeme, 'cos I just can't picture it.
Is the tack in the middle of the 'foot' and a clew either side? I can see that working as a Sym, but as an Assy? What happens to the 'spare' sailcloth between the tack & the clew that's not in use? Or are you talking about moving the old clew to become the tack & old tack to become the clew in a gybe? (Which is what we do in Sym classes, but typically it's done by hard manual labour not pussies pulling string (with apologies to 5o crews everywhere ) |
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Nick
D-Zero 316 |
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iGRF
Really should get out more Joined: 07 Mar 11 Location: Hythe Online Status: Offline Posts: 6496 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 04 Nov 13 at 3:46pm |
Imagine a conventional Assy, with a line from the tack to the clew running through a pulley block on the end of the normal pole, then on the gybe instead of pulling the clew through and turning the kite over so to speak, you just let go the clew sheet and have the other sheet attached to the foot, the foot then becomes the new clew and the old clew becomes the foot. The trailing edge becomes the leading edge and vice versa. So that's it working 'assy' style, but if you want to run, you engage a dangle pole in the clew that's about to be a foot, allow some slack to the centre line between the two and the clew doesn't go all the way to the foot and it's square rigged. Simples (At least it seems simple to my mind, I haven't done it yet there must be something I've missed or someone would have done it already.) Edited by iGRF - 04 Nov 13 at 3:48pm |
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gbrspratt
Posting king Joined: 26 Sep 11 Location: Felixstowe Online Status: Offline Posts: 170 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 04 Nov 13 at 3:55pm |
So do you drag the kite around the forestay on a footline? And this is on a symmetrical designed kite? How do you keep your new tack at the end of the pole? As you ease the sheet would it not just run along your footline as the pole is on the inside of the kite instead of outside as usual? If I've understood correctly that is.
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