Luffing rights - Proper Course - 2013 rule???

Originally posted by Brass The issue wasn't really 'hull' lengths or 'overtaking', but it's not lengths of the larger boat, but lengths of the astern boat.

Originally posted by Quagers Originally posted by andymck As for rule 17, we certainly enforce that rule off the start line, when a boat that has come from behind can not sail above close hauled (after the gun) until she has become clear ahead on the windward boat, unless she tacks behind. TR C4. TR call D7 would also suggest that you are constrained by rule 17 until you are passed the lay line to the next windward mark, so if you do tack, you go behind. These are both applicable to team racing and fleet racing.  I think you have mis understood call D7, it only applies in the case where leeward luffs and does not change tacks, as shown in the picture. If in the same situation leeward was able to complete its tack while giving windward room to keep clear under rule 15 that would be fine and windward would be obliged to avoid. In addition, on a beat either of the 2 tacks is considered to be a proper course. < id="adlesse_unifier_magic_element_id" style="display:none;">

That call emphasises that rule 17 is in force until beyond the lay line when it becomes clear which of the two proper courses is the proper course. That then gives you back the opportunity to sail above close hauled. Before that, as we are constrained by rule 17 you are not allowed to luff above close hauled without going behind the windward boat. As described in question two of the same call.

Thus. Going back to the original scenario. At the leeward mark. Having come from behind within two boat lengths to leeward, having not broken the overlap, even though you have two proper courses, you should not luff above close hauled unless you continue and go behind the windward boat.
You either have to get to a clear ahead point or drop two boat lengths to leeward before you can chance your arm at a rule 13/15 tack, as to tack you will have already broken 17.

I take the point that even if the leeward boat does luff, the windward boat still has to try to keep clear, but there seems to be an assumption witnessed at several events that if you are bow out and a bit to leeward you can chance your arm at a tack. Most of the situations would also have been covered by 13/15 which we called them on, but my point is that there was still a rule 17 obligation as well.



Edited by andymck - 17 Jun 13 at 7:32pm

Originally posted by andymck That call emphasises that rule 17 is in force until beyond the lay line when it becomes clear which of the two proper courses is the proper course. That then gives you back the opportunity to sail above close hauled. Before that, as we are constrained by rule 17 you are not allowed to luff above close hauled without going behind the windward boat. As described in question two of the same call. Thus. Going back to the original scenario. At the leeward mark. Having come from behind within two boat lengths to leeward, having not broken the overlap, even though you have two proper courses, you should not luff above close hauled unless you continue and go behind the windward boat. You either have to get to a clear ahead point or drop two boat lengths to leeward before you can chance your arm at a rule 13/15 tack, as to tack you will have already broken 17. I take the point that even if the leeward boat does luff, the windward boat still has to try to keep clear, but there seems to be an assumption witnessed at several events that if you are bow out and a bit to leeward you can chance your arm at a tack. Most of the situations would also have been covered by 13/15 which we called them on, but my point is that there was still a rule 17 obligation as well.

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Originally posted by Brass Originally posted by andymck I have seen a few breaks of 17 when going round a leeward mark they have got bow out and about a boat length and a half to leeward, having come from behind, they throw in a tack. Then call starboard. 17 says they have to go behind. Most seem to think it is rule 13 that is in force, even so, probably too close to tack. At a leeward mark, an advanced outside boat with rule 17 on who throws a tack, in all probability is quite reasonably sailing her proper course: a boat can have more than one proper course, and on a windward leg, either tack is arguably her proper course. But a leeward boat overlapped outside not more than two hull lengths separated, when tacking is going to have a lot of difficulty complying with rule 13 and rule 15. So, its 13 and 15, not 17 that will cause her trouble.

Originally posted by ds797 So there seems to have been major thread creep!!  All good discussion.... but.... If I'm on a reach between two marks and want to overtake (yes I know the term is not used) a slightly slower boat, if I sail to windward of him does he have a right to luff me, or should he maintain his proper course to the next mark?  If I pass him to leeward can I luff him to help me pass and clear his dirty wind? That was my original question, although I may have phrased it badly!

And you were given answers to your question in the second and fourth posts in the thread.