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Luffing rights - Proper Course - 2013 rule??? |
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RS400atC
Really should get out more Joined: 04 Dec 08 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3011 |
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Topic: Luffing rights - Proper Course - 2013 rule??? Posted: 16 Jun 13 at 9:51pm |
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I don't know when 'overtake' was last in the right of way part of RRS, but I think it was a long time ago, like when Mk1 Cortinas were new?
It is still in the colregs, and we all respect those when we come across non-racing craft, don't we? (Pond sailors may claim an exemption). It's rule 3 of colregs, overtaking vessel keeps clear, and it over-rides 'power gives way to sail and all that. |
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RS400atC
Really should get out more Joined: 04 Dec 08 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3011 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 16 Jun 13 at 10:01pm | |||
Hi, which bit of my post is confusing? I expect the others have explained more clearly? If it's not clear, go straight to Bryan Willis' book is never bad advice IMHO. cheers, |
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Brass
Really should get out more Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1146 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 17 Jun 13 at 3:30am | |||
Well, that's going to make look like the shy retiring type that I am isn't it.
Ford Prefects mate. The black boxy ones. My copy of the RYA rules of 1947.
No, it's two hull lengths of the boat coming from clear astern.
Andymac meet Andymck
There is no meaning to 'gybing' in fleet racing. What matters for rule 17 is 'not remaining on the same tack'. A boat's leeward side, and hence the tack she is on, is determined, when sailing by the
lee or directly downwind, by the side on which her mainsail lies (Definition Leeward and Windward, Definition Tack Starboard or Port). Usually we we would say the side a boat's mainsail lies is where 'most' (more than half, two thirds) lies. With a non-gaff mainsail, it will be difficult for a boat that is by the lee to get most of her mainsail across the boat without the boom also coming across (and if you want to play around with that a little more see MR Call G5). Usually a double gybe is done dead downwind on a steady course, or with a little fishtail.
In a double gybe you expect to see the boom and most of the main come across the boat then come back.
At a leeward mark, an advanced outside boat with rule 17 on who throws a tack, in all probability is quite reasonably sailing her proper course: a boat can have more than one proper course, and on a windward leg, either tack is arguably her proper course.
But a leeward boat overlapped outside not more than two hull lengths separated, when tacking is going to have a lot of difficulty complying with rule 13 and rule 15.
So, its 13 and 15, not 17 that will cause her trouble Edited by Brass - 17 Jun 13 at 3:39am |
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Andymac
Really should get out more Joined: 04 Apr 07 Location: Derbyshire Online Status: Offline Posts: 852 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 17 Jun 13 at 8:00am | |||
Thanks Brass, Yes of course I should have used the term hull lengths (not boat lengths).
I believe myself and andymck have had an 'introduction' in the past.
Just to clarify, my use of the term 'overtaking' boat picked up on the description by the OP, and was repeated purely to illustrate the boat which gained an overlap from astern. I did not wish to infere that 'overtaking' boats had any rights or obligations under the RRS since the definition is not used.
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Brass
Really should get out more Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1146 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 17 Jun 13 at 8:24am | |||
The issue wasn't really 'hull' lengths or 'overtaking', but it's not lengths of the larger boat, but lengths of the astern boat.
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andymck
Far too distracted from work Joined: 15 Dec 06 Location: Stamford Online Status: Offline Posts: 397 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 17 Jun 13 at 11:00am | |||
Brass
The argument about gybing has come in a team racing situation. A boat holding its boom out in a by the lee situation. Which tack is she on if the sail has started to fill from the other side, ie the top of the sail has gybed, but is prevented from coming across the boat by the actions of the crew. The interpretation of which tack the boat was on then becomes tricky. Clearly the windward side has changed, despite the sail being held on the previous tack. The instruction from the senior umpire on the day was the boat has gybed, as there is a new windward side, from which the sail is filling, even though the sail had not crossed the boat, but had crossed the boom. This was the interpretation being used in the uk back in March, and may have changed again since. I did ask the question about the top of the sail flipping, as we see quite often in single handers, the answer was that was two simultaneous gybes under their current interpretation of the rule, as they were using the top batten area as the reference point. What could not be done was the forced passage of the boom across the boat, where the windward side, ie the direction of the filling of the sail did not change, even though you could get 2/3rds of sail across on the boats we use. This is obviously an area which is evolving, but they were putting more emphasis on windward side than position of the sail at that time. Edited by andymck - 17 Jun 13 at 11:06am |
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Andy Mck
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andymck
Far too distracted from work Joined: 15 Dec 06 Location: Stamford Online Status: Offline Posts: 397 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 17 Jun 13 at 11:18am | |||
As for rule 17, we certainly enforce that rule off the start line, when a boat that has come from behind can not sail above close hauled (after the gun) until she has become clear ahead on the windward boat, unless she tacks behind. TR C4.
TR call D7 would also suggest that you are constrained by rule 17 until you are passed the lay line to the next windward mark, so if you do tack, you go behind. These are both applicable to team racing and fleet racing. Edited by andymck - 17 Jun 13 at 11:23am |
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Andy Mck
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Quagers
Far too distracted from work Joined: 24 Oct 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 279 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 17 Jun 13 at 12:38pm | |||
In a team racing situation this is governed by TR calls G1 and G3 which cover most situations. If the mainsail is being held in place against the force of the wind by the crew then that boat is not 'sailing by the lee' and its tack is determined by which side the wind hits. In the first situation you describe the conclusion is right (eg. yes the boat has gybed) but the reasons given are not those given in the rules and case book which confuse the issue. If the top of the sail flipped without the boom coming across without physical interference from the crew I would a) be very surprised and b) not class it as a gybe. Edited by Quagers - 17 Jun 13 at 12:38pm |
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Quagers
Far too distracted from work Joined: 24 Oct 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 279 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 17 Jun 13 at 12:41pm | |||
I think you have mis understood call D7, it only applies in the case where leeward luffs and does not change tacks, as shown in the picture. If in the same situation leeward was able to complete its tack while giving windward room to keep clear under rule 15 that would be fine and windward would be obliged to avoid. In addition, on a beat either of the 2 tacks is considered to be a proper course. < id="adlesse_unifier_magic_element_id" style="display:none;"> Edited by Quagers - 17 Jun 13 at 12:46pm |
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Brass
Really should get out more Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1146 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 17 Jun 13 at 3:20pm | |||
Thanks Quagers. That pesky tag is back.
Good to get the TR stuff from somebody who knows about it. I need to get my head around it: I'm off to my TR Ump seminar in July. Agree TR Calls G1 and G3 cover the field. I see also that Appendix D does not bring back the gybe, so the language of 'gybing' tends to confuse the issue. Key point is that when the boom is held out artificially, the calls say the boat is no longer sailing by the lee, thus the 'actual' windward side governs.
Edited by Brass - 17 Jun 13 at 3:21pm |
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