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2013 Rules New Definition of 'finish'

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Medway Maniac View Drop Down
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    Posted: 30 May 13 at 4:04pm
The latest definition of "finish" states:

However, she has not finished if after crossing the finishing line she
.......
(c) continues to sail the course.

This was apparently introduced to avoid people claiming they'd finished after passing through the line the first time in a lapping course (tho' I never saw that happen before).

Does it not open the possibility, however, that if someone continues to sail the course, e.g. after failing to see a shorten course flag and hear a finishing hooter, they can be deemed not to have finished?  

As an RO, I've frequently had to send a RIB in pursuit of competitors doing just this; if I do it now, I'm providing outside assistance to ensure they finish correctly. 

I guess that if the course specifies a given number of laps then the course ends as you cross on the Nth time, so it is impossible to "continue sailing" it, but where the number of laps is unspecified, the course merely specifies buoy in a given order and the RO relies on using the S flag....?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Contender443 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 13 at 5:50pm
Doesn't that make the S flag useless then. If they continue to sail the course they have not finished and are then still racing. It will only end they decide to stop sailing the course.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote GML Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 13 at 6:44pm
There is no course for them to continue sailing after they have passed through the shortened course finish line, so assuming that they don't have a penalty to take, or an error under rule 28.1 made at the line to correct, I believe they have finished (and are therefore no longer racing) as soon as they have cleared the finish line and marks.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 13 at 10:26pm
If a boat has crossed the finishing line after sailing the course as required she has finished. What she does after clearing the line has no bearing on the race because she is no longer racing (unless of course she interferes with a boat that is racing).

This change was introduced to take account of the use of courses in which boats sail through the finish line on each lap.

However, some sea lawyers are trying to torture the English language to claim that a boat that if a boat "finishes" then realises she has not sailed the correct course she may "continue to sail the course" by returning to sail to correct an error under 28.1. Not an interpretation that has found much favour with the rules amongst the rule makers.

Whilst I understand a RO who despatches a RIB to recover boats that have set off on another lap this could be considered as outside help - but for the following race!
Gordon
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 13 at 11:00pm
The "study version" of the rules, http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/RRS20132016StudyVersion-[13380].pdf says the reason is because the definition of finish included when you sailed through the line on each lap, and also if you happened to sail through the finish line on another leg.

I must say I don't find the revised finish definition to be very satisfactory: "from the course side" is no better than "from the direction of the last mark" to my mind, and the "continuing to sail the course" bit is as confusing as hell. I've been known to sail part of an extra lap or even a whole one when its a really good breeze or course just for the fun of it... And supposing the wind pipes up and one boat decides to sail an extra lap which gives them a handicap advantage in an average lap race?

I reckon this definition won't survive beyond this set of rules. I suggest that this and RRS28 will need to be written so that a boat cannot finish unless she has completed the prescribed course. The tricky bit will be how the RC is to know whether the prescribed course has been completed... One approach might be to require an S flag on every finish so if the S flag isn't up you haven't finished.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 13 at 11:55pm
Not the RC's job to police people sailing the course. 

Rather than always use S, could simply reword the blue flag. Something along he lines of RC is ready to finish boats. Blue flag only goes up once everybody has sailed enough laps. Also makes more sense for shore lines. 


Edited by Presuming Ed - 31 May 13 at 12:00am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 13 at 8:46am
The blue flag means : this race committee boat is on station on the finish line.

This is usually only displayed when committee is ready to record finishes. Which does not mean that the next time boats sail through the line they have finished, they may have another lap to sail!

There may be another signal required when boats sail laps for a specified time then finish when RC decides that the time is up. This should be dealt with in the SIs.

I doubt that rule 28 will be rewritten. As it is a boat may only comply with rule 28 by sailing the course as required. It is not the RC job to decide if a boat has not sailed the course. They merely record the finishing place or time. If they believe that a boat may not have sailed the course the RC MUST protest.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 13 at 6:49am
Originally posted by JimC

I must say I don't find the revised finish definition to be very satisfactory: "from the course side" is no better than "from the direction of the last mark" to my mind, and the "continuing to sail the course" bit is as confusing as hell. I've been known to sail part of an extra lap or even a whole one when its a really good breeze or course just for the fun of it.
I fear that the tweaks to the definition of finish are the outcome of having a committee, with a diversity of native languages among the participants.
 
However, I think that these posts have explained how it should work reasonably clearly, for the normal (non-variable-lap) race.
 
Originally posted by GML

There is no course for them to continue sailing after they have passed through the shortened course finish line, so assuming that they don't have a penalty to take, or an error under rule 28.1 made at the line to correct, I believe they have finished (and are therefore no longer racing) as soon as they have cleared the finish line and marks.
 
 
Originally posted by gordon

If a boat has crossed the finishing line after sailing the course as required she has finished. What she does after clearing the line has no bearing on the race because she is no longer racing
 
Originally posted by JimC

... And supposing the wind pipes up and one boat decides to sail an extra lap which gives them a handicap advantage in an average lap race?
.
 
Variable lap races are pretty much an 'innovation' not originally contemplated by the RRS.
 
They require special SI, so it's just a  matter of adjusting the special SI to work in harmony with the definition, having had the problems pointed out by the Study Verision Submission.
 
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