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National Handicap For Cruisers (NHC)

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Post Options Post Options   Quote sailorman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: National Handicap For Cruisers (NHC)
    Posted: 07 Mar 13 at 8:12pm
Evening, 

On 1st March the RYA launched the National Handicap for Cruisers.

As a Cruiser Captain for a keen cruiser racing club I was enthusiastic about the launch of this new handicap system and the hope of something more workable for cruisers than the PY system.

In principle the system seems good but my enthusiasm has rapidly decreased when examining the list of base numbers.  According to the base numbers a Nicholson 32 is faster than a Bolero Quarter Tonner as is an Albin Vega????  additionally a Jeaneau rush which is based on a competitive 1/2 Tonner is only 2 minutes than a Twister.  and so the discrepancies go on.

I appreciate the system is designed to be performance based and TCC's should adjust as a series progresses but surely the base numbers should correlate with the comparative performance of each boat???  

Does anyone know how the RYA have come up with the Base number list, as it would appear that the ones that are way out are for boats who are unlikely to have been rated under IRC.

If the Base numbers don't make sense then unfortunately the NHC is dead before it starts and we will have to go back to the less than adequate PY system
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farc anal View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote farc anal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 13 at 4:36pm
my sentiments too ,

a bit of proof reading and adjustment of base figures (as they dont really matter ) would not go adrift , my out and out cruiser is supposed to be faster than most of the J fleet !!!!. 

although they will iron out , you cant get over the fact that you will be underachieving from the start , not much of a grabber , and otherwise what would seem an excellent idea 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote craiggo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 13 at 6:08pm
I beta tested the sailwave version for NCH and was surprised to find how it worked. The process of calculating the adjustment is fine as is the software but I don't like the idea of starting from a list that was in essence the reason for developing the system in the first place. The RYA have stated that if your boat or config is not in the list they will be happy to calc a start point for you. They are tight-lipped about it but I suspect they are going to generate starting numbers along the lines of a simple measurement system such as Byron. This then begs the question that if you want a simple measurement system without running to IRC, then why not use Byron, as is the current standard in the Bristol Channel clubs. The NCH doesn't allow two Impalas for instance to be held to the same rating even if they measure as such. It's pure personal handicap folks. Having evaluated Byron, PYS (the online py scheme primarily for dinghies) and now NCH, my preference is go to Byron for a measurement rating then use the existing PYS scheme to annually review and adjust your numbers for local sailing. The NCH achieves nothing over this approach other than the numbers looking like IRC numbers and will only lead to confusion.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote MerlinMags Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 13 at 6:42pm
There was a press release from the RYA today, which might help with your concerns?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote craiggo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 13 at 9:45pm
Interesting post mags, but doesn't offer up anything new. They are basing the base numbers on a basic measurement system such as Byron, then asking us to then make personal adjustments via scoring systems such as sailwave.
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Helmit View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Helmit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 13 at 2:27pm

NATION HANDICAP FOR CRUISERS

 

The wider perspective

 

THE RYA CHARTER

Fundamentals

“A club or race organisation that does not adhere to the Rules of the NHC brings the scheme into disrepute.”

 

This suggests that an organisation accepts the rules in full or not at all.

 

Base numbers

These are wrong. Like many observers we see a Beneteau 25.7 nearly level rating with the new Beneteau first 30. A Beneteau 21.7 now gives time to a Sonata and level rates with a Jenneau Sunfast 26. If we are experiencing issues with the base numbers then all the clubs must be.

It is not good enough to say that it will sort itself out as particular race type always reverts back to the base number.

 

Club Series

The committee can see that in a series of races the scheme in its pure form works and that after a season the CN numbers will have for most boats moved well away from their original base number.

It does not however allow for the boat that sails short handed and then when crew is available decides to fly a kite. It assumes that the boat is sailed in a similar manner manner throughout the series.

 

 

Single races

Which handicap do we use for a single race like a three hour race or a pursuit race?

We cannot use the Club series handicap as it is.

 

1                    Outside the provisions of the Rules and Guidance of the NHC

2                    Whether deliberately or not if the club series number was used boats may hold back in a series in order to obtain a good handicap for a particular higher profile race.

 

As a single race we are obliged to go back to base numbers which are clearly wrong for most boats as was identified in earlier.

 

Joint races

What handicap does a boat bring to a joint race between clubs?

 

By definition we go back to the base numbers which we know are wrong.

These races are also capped by ten percent and therefore those boats that have vastly favourable numbers will win by default.

 

We cannot let them bring their handicap with them and we cannot give them an average from our fleet as they may be a scratch boat and would clearly give them an advantage.

 

For instance we have two scratch beneteau’s. One that races with cruisers and the other with racing boats.

Their numbers vary hugely because of the fleet they are racing with.

Why would the more handicapped boat bother to race in a joint race when they know that the handicap alone will mean that they cannot compete?

 

Promote sailing

It may do the opposite.

Boats who were going to travel to an event like “Round the Island “ will be disincentived as they have to use a base number provided by some strange measurement which in its current form does not allow for kites, props or even whether the designer built it for cruising or racing.

 

I would hope that the RYA resolve these issues before they let loose a system which could turn into a farce and be dropped completely.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 13 at 3:06pm
My understanding is the base numbers were founded on a formula roughly based on IRC, but limited only to publicly available data. Such a system can never be very clever, but its all you're going to get unless you want to go to a more fully measured system like IRC. If you want a more fully measured system like IRC, why on earth would you not use IRC?

NHC is basically intended for entry level racing for those not ready for IRC for one reason or another. In such racing crew ability is going to be vastly more important than handicap.

The fundamental problem is that Portsmouth Yardstick for cruisers had ceased to be viable.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 13 at 3:52pm
I'm intersted in Bas's claim that boats out of the same mould can be 500mm different in length.

Basically this scheme is personal handicaps.
If that is fundamentally what people want, that's OK.

I think many clubs will go down the route of saying 'boats of that design rate x on IRC, so their Mud Creek YC rating is Y'.

Or they will use the old PY numbers by another name.

There is already a problem that IRC owners pay a lot of money to run the system, then certain clubs appear to freeload from that.

PY does not seem that popular for yachts around the Solent, although we've used PY's to create local club ratings in the past using whatever is most similar as a reference. For instance a boat (design) 3% faster on PY than a Co32 and similar in style got a club rating 3% faster. Where the rest of our club ratings came from is a mystery, but most people just seem to accept them. It's OK for wednesday night or Autumn Series racing amoung boats that are mostly owned for cruising and just want a bit of fun. If you are more serious than that, IRC or one design might be best.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Helmit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 13 at 8:47pm
Hi
 
Whatever scheme the RYA decides on it must sure that it will work.
In its present form there are serious issues about boats sailing at another clubs event as they are required  to start back at base numbers.
As was noted earlier in these posts some of the base numbers are ridiculous.
 
It is not enough for the RYA to say that it is just an entry level scheme and that if you want to race you need to consider IRC.
 
Any scheme needs to be fair to the competitors.
 
Helmit
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote blueboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 13 at 6:38am
Originally posted by Helmit

Boats who were going to travel to an event like “Round the Island “ will be disincentived



ISC never used PY and the 2013 NoR for RtI continues to provide ISC handicap classes for the once-a-year racers. Do you have any information that suggests the ISC is likely to adopt NHC?


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