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National Handicap For Cruisers (NHC)

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blueboy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote blueboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 13 at 11:36am
Originally posted by hayden60

in order to stop other than IRC racing becoming very insular within each club.


Why is that such a bad thing? Most of the major central Solent clubs manage their own club handicap system, alongside IRC. They haven't used PY in donkey's years. I'm not aware of this being seen as a problem by those who race in club handicap. Race with ISC, use ISC handicap. Race with RSYC, use RSYC handicap. What's the issue? If they want to take their racing a bit more seriously, they can go to IRC.

It sounds like you want something like PHRF and its Board structure in the UK. Listening to how the Americans moan and groan about it, I'd say thanks but no thanks. It seems to me the mix of freely allocated club handicaps plus IRC addresses the need quite nicely already.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 13 at 5:13pm

The problem with each club having its own rating system is that they are mostly apparently based on either blind guesswork and/or plagiarising IRC ratings.
This leaves the boats with IRC ratings paying for the whole system.
I don't know what an IRC rating costs now, but it was getting to be a barrier to some people last time I ws involved.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote craiggo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 13 at 8:14pm
And you wonder why people don't want it? I'd say open your eyes to what goes on outside of the Solent. IRC is an expensive and unnecessary system for many sailors who generally only race in their own club or at key local events. This is all clearly a ploy by the RYA to hand cruiser racing to RORC.

As I've mentioned previously, use the baselist or Byron, then use PYS to adjust. The RYA should know what tools they have in their belt, which makes me even more suspicious of a backroom deal between them and RORC.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Helmit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 13 at 9:01pm
Hi craiggo
 
I hear what you say
You wonder why the RYA did not have consultations with the clubs that were using PY and to assess how they were making variations from their PY lists for props and sail types etc and redesign this for use at all clubs.
 
This could then have been the basis of their new numbers. Instead of having us submit the PY returns annually they could have instructed the sailwave programs to automatically upload the resuls afer each race and suddenly they have achieved the solution for PY they were looking for instead of creating a golf tournement out of racing.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote blueboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 13 at 1:05pm
Originally posted by RS400atC


The problem with each club having its own rating system is that they are mostly apparently based on either blind guesswork and/or plagiarising IRC ratings.
This leaves the boats with IRC ratings paying for the whole system.
I don't know what an IRC rating costs now, but it was getting to be a barrier to some people last time I ws involved.


I don't see any evidence that systems such as ISC Handicap are any more or less "blind guesswork" than any system that is not professionally administered is likely to be, or that the constituency of (largely) once-a-year racers that use it is crying out for a national system instead.

IRC certificates cost 11.80 per metre which is small change in comparison with most costs associated with a racing yacht. Yes if you only race once a year, it's a lump of money you might prefer to spend elsewhere but if you only race once a year, you would be misguided to get too worked up as to your handicap.

Clubs can use whatever system they want. Don't like NHC, don't use it then. Why all the angst?




Edited by blueboy - 16 Apr 13 at 1:22pm
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craiggo View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote craiggo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 13 at 6:28pm
When your typical club cruiser costs 6-15k and annual club membership is 85 + 40 for a mooring, then another 100 is a large increment. For South Coast guys with Marina fees of 4k I can accept your point but you have to remember that the South Coast is not representative of the whole uk sailing scene.

Why have a paid system when a perfectly good free system could have been created for those who don't want IRC?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 13 at 10:41pm
It's not really free, it is paid for by RYA members.
Like many people, I pay a sub to the RYA and this is one of the few things they provide for grass roots sailors.
Personally I don't have much stake in cruiser racing, but the same ideas are being forced into the dinghy PY scheme more subtly.

People need to understand the impact of changes and speak up if it's not what they want.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 13 at 11:01pm
Originally posted by blueboy

....
I don't see any evidence that systems such as ISC Handicap are any more or less "blind guesswork" than any system that is not professionally administered is likely to be, or that the constituency of (largely) once-a-year racers that use it is crying out for a national system instead.
.....


The ISC system is not as blind in its guesswork as some of the anomalies in the NHC numbers.
Yes the people who use such systems are mostly fairly happy, but I suspect the lack of any formula or consistency becomes an issue if you want to move from club to club, or introduce a design that is not easy to guess a club rating based on 'similar' boats.
Club ratings can be quite 'finger in the air', like 'looks about half way between a Sigma 33 and and Impala to me...' This is often good enough, but I wouldn't want to have to justify it if a few seconds decided who got the champagne...

While the cost of an IRC rating is not extreme to many people, it should be remembered that even modest changes can invalidate the certificate. If you go IRC, you do not just get a number, you accept a bunch of class rules to keep that cert valid.

Many yachts also race singlehanded, two handed and other sub-ratings which may be separate from their IRC rating.

It's worth remembering that Yot Racing is not unique to the Uk, there is other data out there if you need a number for a Saab 900 or whatever!
Maybe we should be looking to share data with other countries?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote blueboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Apr 13 at 7:37am
^

IRC amendments are 4.40 per metre. If you want a separate short-handed rating (and most boats that race short-handed don't bother) that's 5.75 per metre.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote blueboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Apr 13 at 7:51am
Originally posted by craiggo

Why have a paid system when a perfectly good free system could have been created for those who don't want IRC?


It's your assertion that "a perfectly good free system" is possible. It's pretty apparent that no handicap system ever devised, free or otherwise, is "perfectly good". The question is how imperfect you are prepared to put up with and how much you are prepared to pay to make it better.

The country that's embraced performance-based handicapping for cruisers most strongly is the USA i.e. PHRF, with a regional board system for governance and, apparently, some 20,000 certificates issued annually. It's not free - a typical cost might be around 30-40 equivalent versus 100 for a 30 footer in IRC. It certainly isn't perfect, nor are handicaps produced by different regional boards identical. Whereas in the UK, we have choice: free rough-and-ready handicapping and IRC for those prepared to pay a bit more for a professionally management measurement-based system. I've owned boats that have raced in both systems and I think that choice suits most people. When 95% of my racing was OD I did handicap racing in club handicap, knowing it would take a miracle to win, because it didn't matter enough to me to pay the for IRC. When I did more handicap racing, I paid for an IRC certificate. That's exactly the kind of choice for owners the system we've got allows.

It's got to be realised that PY more or less works for dinghies because you've got substantial numbers of returns for identical boats. For cruisers, aside from a handful of classes,  you don't and you never will. The problem to be solved is not the same. Anyone who thinks there is ever going to be a system for handicapping cruisers that's both reliable and free just doesn't understand the issues.

But hey, if that perfect and free system is out there, go use it. If it can be invented, go invent it. Clubs don't have to use what the RYA provides and in many cases, they don't.


Edited by blueboy - 17 Apr 13 at 8:08am
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