Now there's a good idea.  I'm not over 90kg but if I was sailing regularly inland I'd give that a try.  What particularly attracts me is that the sail looks like it will last longer and will set better.  As a bonus its all a lot cheaper than Laser.

Seems like an interesting concept to me; guess it's a case of "watch this space"...

I wonder what Laser think of it

You're thoughts were precisely mine, JimC, the moment I saw the thread title.

In fact I've been wondering how long it wouldd take for someone to come up with a Byte C2 style rig for the Laser - a bit longer still, apparently.

You could up the area over the Laser's 7.1,  given the extra efficiency, as you say, Jim, but the problem is you never get as much as you expect - as you up the area, so you raise the centre of effort too.

But 8 - 8.5 m2 would probably be about the right size, I guess...

I see Rooster are claiming a PY of 1051 for it.

That strikes me as optimistic, not least because it's rare for a Laser to win on PY anyway, but mainly because they're expecting a 2.6% performance gain from a 14% area increase, when the full rig only rates 2.1% faster than the Radial despite a 25% increase in sail area.

Surely the efficiency can't be that much better? - the cut pattern is similar to the original, now superceded Byte sail.

Personally I find the normal full rig tough going in a strong wind!  If you want a bigger sailed boat aimed at a heavier person why not trade the (basically crappy) laser for a (really rather nice) phantom?

Having said which I'd always fancied a C2 type rig for the laser - a more manageable gust response for one thing - and roosters big rig is at least a step away from the laser hegemony.

Wonder if rooster would consider a normal sized rig but cut better.  I have a rooster main already but it's as similar to lasers as possible and suffers the same (and probably more) faults.

I'm told...... the Byte C2 rig is no faster than the conventional rig sailed by someone really good; it's just easier to sail to handicap.

More to the point, final PY depends on club returns and clubs rarely seem to make them.  Furthermore, the RYA generally registers jsut one version of each class, so any reduced PY affects the whole fleet, not just the upgraded parts of it.  You need a very honest CA or a huge difference before a classes design improvement causes a PY reduction, let alone a class PY split.  Check out old wooden vs new plastic fireballs for instance! 

i also think a byte c2 type rig would be a benefit partly because it would spice up the laser and make it more interesting. they are 1 of the most boring boats i've ever sailed  but that is just my opinion

I would imagine the Blaze would blitz the Rooster 8.1 in a breeze but the boot would be on the other foot in the lighter stuff.  I'm also thinking a better cut sail would make the Laser an easier boat to sail in the heavier winds so the 8.1 might not be such a handful in a blow.

Yes a Byte C2 type rig would be even bettter but quite a bit more expensive.

And a final thought regarding the XD kit on Lasers.  Are any of the hulls showing any strain from the increased loads of the multipurchase downhaul?  I bet it won't be long before we find boats with the mast appearing out of the bottom or have they modified the design in this area?

It's true - a C2 style rig would make the laser a very expensive boat for what you got.  Better to spend it on a whole different design! 

Anyway, well done Rooster for pushing at the envelope a little.  how about some rooster hulls too!!!!!!

What about it, I am going to be controversial again but a supernova is a nothing boat, much slower heavier and technologically retarded then an OK, Phantom etc. and quite frankly slower, I will say that they are good value for money though.

The big question is why did they do this? Especially when there is so much good competition out there.

Why not take over the marketing of the Blaze or launch a Phantom?

As people have said elsewhere the hull and rudder may suffer with the extra power and stresses.

What next put a trapeze on it?

I think that you and I both sail the logical conclution of increasing a Laser sail area.

Its also had a few improvements, but the contender was designed before the laser, dose that make the laser a bit of a step backwards?

Great to hear the general positive feeling for the Rooster 8.1.  I am sure it will not take sailors from the Phantom type fleets  - but just might encourage some back to sailing with a grin on their face.

I thought I should give you some background to the PY debate. 

In testing last week as Stokes Bay - I was pulling out 3 mins per lap in 4-5 knts.  Each latp took about 20 mins.  I took 3 mins out of the contender in the fist 30 mins.  There was a huge windshift of the last beat  - knocking my lead down to just 3 mins in 60 mins.  But I was still grining.

Further testing on Wednesday against a very competitive Laser sailor, Ian Morgan (actually the guy who had most to do with the Design) (he's Rooster's Latest Assett - so we are now officially a sailmaker too!)  Anyway - in about 10 knts upwind The 8.1 was 5 secs faster in 3 mins - on a reach (I was picking the angle (cheat!)) the 8.1 was 15 secs faster in 3 mins and on a run - the 8.1 was 30 secs faster in 3 mins!  Today in 20 knts, but wind with tide it was a bit harder work.  Interestingly it was a quiet sail.  No flappy flappy bit you get from the full rig - but at 79Kg  and short enough to sail a radial - I would honestly say I was overpowered and found short taking up the shore in 20 knts and chop just a little physical.  I guess I am glad really else it would be a direct competitor for a Laser style person.  However, I pulled and passed lots of OCS sailors and finished moderately well in the fleet.  The offwind legs were too short though (with the tide taking us down) I cruised past lots off wind - but gains downwind were reduced by the current upwind.   I would have loved to see a 90Kg person upwind today!  Everyone else who sailed the boat thought it was smoother than the standard rig, and were surprised at how well it handled.  They did not want to give it back!

I think the sail will work even better inland where the handicap should come into its own.  I think we have been rather conservative with our Handicap on reflection.   

Some have said that the boat might not take the loads.  We have said that it is for one person - and since the Laser  is meant to be designed for up to two people (class rules permit) then one in an 8.1 should be fine.  I have sailed lasers in 40 knts and pitch poled with two people in it!  I do not think there is any real boat problems. 

We are open to a new rudder idea - we can definitely get a new blade made for the rudder stock - but I am keen to make the Rooster 8.1 class affordable  - so we will make that development an option rather than a must have.  Generally the rudder is more neutral than normal - although one sailor test sailed it today did not use enough Cunningham and he found the rudder heavy.   We are also developing a carbon top mast - just a never break it type - that might lighten the rig slightly for downwind turns.  Again - I have no intension of making it compulsory - and we definitely are keen to make them affordable. 

You can all get a chance to take a look at the 8.1 at the Ali Pali Dinghy Show.  Rooster Sailing have two stands - the larger being C35 - just under the Rose Window.  It is promising to be an interesting affair.  

Happy Sailing!

I don't know why the Blaze sailors seem so worried?  I think the Blaze is an excellent boat - but a totally different demographic to the new Rooster 8.1 sailor. 

As for Laser and the hijack - I think it is up to the owners of the Laser to deceide if they want be a Rooster 8.1 sailor.   I can see the caption - sail a Rooster 8.1 and every day can be a windy day!

Well hopefully market forces.

Demographics is a shortened term for 'population characteristics'. Demographics include race, age, income, mobility, educational attainment, home ownership, employment status, and even location. Distributions of values within a demographic variable, and across households, are both of interest, as well as trends over time.

So in what respect would they be very different?

Obvious - If you can say DEMOGRAPHICS you buy a Laser. If you know what it means you buy a Blaze.

It's a great idea, wouldn't it be great if it became more popular than the standard laser.  It won't make it plane upwind but will help it get to max hull speed upwind a bit sooner, and should should get planing downwind that bit earlier.

What i don't like about sailing a laser is the hassle of rigging.  I hate having to drag a fragile sail thru' the mud, getting on the mast, then having to thread up outhaul & cunningham etc..  I think a good developement would be a one piece alloy mast with a track & halyard, that dropped into the existing hole.  Then the boom could be left on, no more tying up stuff, you'd be on the water in 10mins!  It would probably sail better with a lighter one piece mast.

Hastle and riggng Laser............?

Laser , Topper, LDC etc have a huge impact and influence on the dinghy sailing market place which is not always healthy. I think this is a great idea, I'd put money on a "new" standard laser sail along the lines on the 8.1 appearing sometime.

Well done Rooster..

However you dress it up though, you are still sailing a boat that is very badly out of date and needing a redesign.  The bigger sail means that you will be needing that bigger rudder that you don't have earlier, you will still have the same lousy control lines, and you will still be sitting in a sink!!

£350 for the sail and top section though, now that is decent value

Laser have quite a vibrant market at the moment, reckon carbon top sections etc would really push prices up and the money won't be in it for Laser to push for. If they did, it wouldn't be long before the MPS would be getting proposed to fill it's spot in my opinion. Why keep an old boat which is getting more expensive trying to mimic newer, better designs, when you can cut out all the hassle and fill an Olympic place with a new boat? Start modifying the Laser substantially and you lose all it stands for. Reckon Rooster could possibly make quite a bit of money out of developing the rig to be more responsive, but if Laser did it, they'd be risking a lot. The boat shouldn't need new foils with the 8:1 rig, as if the boat is sailed properly, the rudder should only be acting as a correction device. 49ers have really small foils in comparision to the Laser when you consider rig size, and the boats don't suffer for it.

What's this about a boat with a fixed mast being easier to rig?  The Laser is ridiculously easy to rig, and as for it being difficult to put the mast up, have you not thought of pointing the mast into the wind and letting the wind do it for you?  You are right about the mast being heavy though you can feel the weight of the thing when you turn corners fast or plough through a chop.

One of the worst things about the Laser is the design of that sail, it seems designed to set at one wind strength, anything less and the kicker has to be too tight and anything more and you have to murder the cunningham to get the fullness forward and even then, there's too much fullness in the top.

One of the best things about the Laser is the close boat-on-boat racing but that seems to be deminishing.  At BBSC we have over 80 lasers in the dinghy park but at best 6 out racing and with the range of abilities that means its really handicap racing - so you might as well have one with a decent sail even if it is 8.1.

As for me, my knees are much better now that I've switched to a more sedate boat - a 4000, but that truly does take some time to rig!

Plastic hull with a fixed mast that you pull the sail up... is that not a Lightning??

Pity Rooster didn't go about it and produce a really good modern looking sail plan  

We wanted to make the sail affordable and continue to use parts that Laser Sailors might have with their old Laser.  

We think we have managed the affordability and everyone who has sailed the boat come off grinning or panting!

Well done Rooster.

I packed up Laser sailing a few years ago because, sailing primarily inland, I was a bit bored and on the heay side. I loved the Laser when it was breezy but struggled with enthusiasm when it was light.

Hence I went looking for more powerful options.

I really wanted to be able to turn up as and when I could, rig and be out on the water within few minutes. I also didn't want to be struggling just to stay upright if I hadn't been out for a few weeks.

There were not really any ideal alternatives - the more powerful single handers were rather more expensive and I didn't want to leave such boats in the dinghy park only being used when i could get there.

There was also the financial aspect - Lasers rea;ly are esay to shift if you need and lose very little in depreciation.

I bought a 600 but found that I couldn.t give it enough time to really enjoy the windy conditions that I liked.

If the 8.1 had been availalble then I would have used that in lighter/medium conditions nad the standard rig when it was breezy - ideal and cheap.

A mast with a track & halyard would be way quicker & easier to rig, you could leave your sail rolled up attached to the boom with all the control lines attached, then just un-roll it, attach the halyard to the sail and pull it up.  You could be on the water in 5mins, whilst the standard lasers are still threading the sail up the mast, in the mud!  One of the main reasons I won't go back to a laser is the hassle & time wasted rigging a boat which is basically crap to sail!  I could put up with it if I didn't have to drag an expensive, fragile sail in the dirt for 15mins, then have to spend another 15 minutes tying up ropes that I had to tie & untie last time I sailed it!

Are you really sure there will be increased loads? 16 stone man holding a standard rigged boat flat is going to have the same sideways stress as 16 stone man hiking out to hold both a 4.7 or an 8.1 flat.
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I'm pritty sure that's not true, but if the new rig is taller there will be an increase in the Moment, there is almost certainly some one here who could work it out better than me.

Anyway the laser mast steps seem to be fairly over build they don't tend to break unless the boats have been misstreated.

The bigger rig will always generate more force (drive and heel) for a given wind speed.  So in any given wind the force on the 8.1 rig and hull will be higher.  This is amplified by the additional mast height.

However, the maximum force on the rig & hull depends on how much heeling force the sailor can counter by hiking.  If you stop sailing at a lower wind force because you're using a bigger sail, then the maximum force is the same - you just give up earlier.  If the 8.1 rig attracts bigger sailors who use it in strong winds, then the max force will be higher.

On the other hand I'll bet rooster's sail develops more forward drive per heeling force than laser's does, so the total forces might even be lower!

Apart from the old (wooden step) laser hulls, has anyone lost a mast foot? All we've had is a broken top mast - due to the radial sail's cut rather than total force.

NB: as for rigging - it's all those little ropes to thread and retaining pins to undo that takes me forever, not putting the sail on the mast or the mast in the boat!  If only the cunningham hole in the sail was big enough to post the cunningham block through .

Given that the max righting moment is determied by the sailor not the sail, the max loading on the mast step on the beat won't be affected by sail size. The average loading may be increased though, in that a fatty will be fully-hiked over a wider range of conditions (though as an aside, it's interesting to appreciate that the max potential thrust of the rig, when fully hiked, will actually decrease with increasing sail size as the centre of effort is moved skywards, increasing heeling moment and necessitating a lower force to equate to the same heeling/righting moment!).

Well off-wind, where loads are effectively unlimited due to the possibility of bearing off ever-further in the gusts, the mast step loadings will be increased by a bigger rig.

So, Laser might have a point if they quibbled over warranty claims.

16 stone man holding a standard rigged boat flat is going to have the same sideways stress as 16 stone man hiking out to hold both a 4.7 or an 8.1 flat.
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True dat...

The average sailor weight will go up, which will put more stress on the hull in the long run, but enough to cause damage? I guess we'll find out soon enough.

I agree, but dragging a  dacron sail in the dirt can't be a good way of rigging a boat.

Surly the max loading will increase, if for a given crew weight is the boat is kept flat, and the sail size is increased the force acting on the centre of effort will increase therefore the moment acting about the mast foot will increase so the load at that point will increase.

That's why I said the average loading would increase. But once you're fully hiked on the beat, the righting moment and the equal and opposite heeling moment of the rig is at a maximum and can't go beyond that, whatever you do with the sail size.

The "force on the centre of effort" could only increase if you had more righting moment to balance it with, which you don't, so you have to start luffing or dumping (assuming you're already on max sail flattening).

''Try and catch clew as it flaps around and then struggle to get it tied off (velcro straps help here but still very fiddly)''

Hopefully this new clew sleeve will make attaching the sail so much easier, i'm going to get one

http://www.lasersailing.com/shop/uks/product/5203 - http://www.lasersailing.com/shop/uks/product/5203

Good point whilst having it hit you round the head!

That fits in with what I was saying. I suggest you re-read both my latest posts on this topic.

Surely those loads are a function of the inertia in the boat, which is largely down to the mass of the hiked sailor - a boat+sailor of zero mass would have zero inertia loading, whatever rig you put on it. Nonetheless, the heavier sailor will on average load the boat more heavily, which accords with what I've already said.

Whatever, you appear to be agreeing with my conclusion that the boat is potentially going to be more highly stressed by the bigger rig. For my money it's the off-wind loads that are likely to break the boat and mast.

I think you Guy's are all talking lots of sense.  One more thought though, once a boat is planeing (never really sure how to spell that) the loads are reduced.  I always think of boat going through the transition from non planeing to planeing generating the most loads on the rig. 

We are considering providing a carbon top mast for the boat.  We have one for show at the Dinghy Show - its over half the weight of the aluminium version, and perhaps more responsive. 

Happy sailing - whatever you sail!

Once the helm is fully hiked the boat is at max load regardless of rig size ...

Once the helm is fully hiked the boat is at max load regardless of rig size ...

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no the max rig loads will be when the helm is fully hiked and there is a gust

Good grief, until something happens untoward, then second guessing outcomes would appear somewhat pointless. 

There is no empiracle data to work from, or even any material data available, so who knows what will happen? Probably not very much.  Just top mast sections breaking as per usual.

Looks like a good idea to me, and far more likely to get the nod on the expenditure front from the family banker.

Actually the biggest risk of damage is of course digging the rig in the mud which can happen regardless of rig size ...

At last, one of us has come up with a constructive comment

Who's scaremongering ... I think some of us are saying it won't make any diference ...

Good point, well made.

Hi there - great debate - keep up the good work! 

My feeling is, that since the Laser is designed for racing for up to two persons(class rules permit)  - then one large person is not going to be any different to two small people - or even a really fit medium sized one in terms of hull load.

I have sailed lasers since 1992, in a wide range of conditions, up to 40 knts and huge waves - I think that the hull is an impressive design that can take a real pounding.  There were some 105 kg blokes sailing in Brazil at the Maters World Championships last year that could really make the boat go upwind in 30 knts and 14 foot waves.   I have also sailed the Rooster 8.1 in 20 knts plus and found it to be a calmer experince than the standard Laser - bit like a Jaguar compared to a Porche, but certainly hard work for my 79Kg.   I feel sure it will be more successful as a rig for large inland sailors - but I do know of some larger sea sailors who are keen to go for a play too.     We will have a carbon top mast on show at the Dinghy Show for use on the Rooster 8.1 Rig.  I have been currently using an old traded in second hand aluminium top mast in testing - and no after effects yet.  Also the hull used for testing has been my beach boat at Stokes Bay - an old workhorse - and no signs of wear more than the normal. 

i'm not a particularly technical sailor, i just enjoy it!!!

Why is the carbon top section only for the 8.1??? Can it not be used for the smaller rigs to save weight? Surely if it manages with an 8.1 rig, it would be really good on the smaller rigs aswell because it means theres hardly any chance of the top section snapping!!!

Ooops, double post

Sorry Rick, wasn't targetting the scaremongering comment at everyone, although there has been a bit of it.

Just looked through some notes I have on the loadings of the standard Laser, and through looking at the figures, the 8.1 rig looks like it will only impose a few kilograms extra of loading, 10-15kg very max by my estimations. When you compare the strength of the hull and components, it isn't too much in the larger scheme of things. 

Well, I am over 90Kg (well over unfortunately) and for many years have longed for a single hander for which I could be competitive in, sails well on the sea, does not weigh the same as a 505 and has a plentiful supply of second hand boats, the impossible dream.

With the advent of the Rooster 8.1 my prayers would seem to have been answered, so it was with some trepidation that I took up Steve's offer of a sail on Saturday.  The conditions were glorious, 15 to 20 knots of breeze, wind over tide producing some good waves, the sun out and pretty mild.

I have sailed a Laser on and off for the last 20 years and am well aware of how they feel in these conditions with a lump like me inside. I am glad to say this was now in a completely different boat to what I was used to it was lithe, nimble and exciting. For the first time I could drive the boat down wind and waves not getting stuck in the troughs, 5th gear had finally been found.

As the final test I lined up against a good friend of a similar weight who normally sails quicker than me downwind. I took 20 to 30m out of him in 150m of sailing. 

In short the Rooster 8.1 has delivered a boat for the big guy, which is a market the major dinghy manufactures have completely ignored. .  Will it be faster than a standard laser? That is a more complex question, the optimum weight to sail a laser would appear to be 80-82 Kg, what this rig does is make the boat feel that way for a larger sailor. The more important element for me is that sailing a Laser can be fun again.

I know very little about Roster or Steves operation but if he is similar to other chandleries that I have worked for the mark up on the laser products will be small compaired to the product with his own brand (we could only sell laser products and break even at the chandlery I worked for). So maybe he is not fussed about peeved off Laser too much.

Alternativly the company seems pritty switch on bissenss wise may be has already talked to Laser and they just don't care about a product that IMHO dose not compeat with them in any way.

maybe this boat could help fix the problem of medal numbers at the olympics, ditch both the finn and the laser standard and replace them with the 8.1. or is that not what people would want from this boat.

just a though.

I'm not so sure that't true it's certainly not for me... except the athletic perfection of course. I struggled to see the point in buying a boat that despite it's merits of being very common I would be pretty much outclassed in due to my weight and fitness (before anyone says it I'm not interested in getting thinner of fitter). If however there was a fat gits alternative that allowed me to race in a massed 'Laser' fleet I might be tempted, because even if I had the only 8.1 It'd still feel more like class racing than racing in my present 'Fast Handicap' fleet of RS200s, Albs and GPs.